i beg to differ. want to know when the surface navy community started its fall from being an offensive force and turned completely defensive? when they started embarking helicopters onboard ships and they lost anti-ship missiles to make room for them. its a loose analogy but surface navy has had only one mission. defend the carriers, defend the amphibs and maybe...just maybe...hunt small boats. the LCS should have been a step toward the surface navy getting back to its roots of actually hunting the enemy but again its being turned into a platform for everything BUT killing other ships. Taiwan is doing it right. the requirements are spot on.
The Navy needs corvettes and frigates. Lots of good discussion on this topic at CDR Salamander blog and Information Dissemination blog. We should be able to build some good corvettes for $150-250M and some hard hitting frigates for $500-600M. The Iver Huitfeldt class is a perfect example of a modern hard hitting frigate that doesn't break the bank. Has the mission flexibility, missile systems, and guns. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iver_Huitfeldt-class_frigate
But when you think about it ships like this are almost upto snuff, if they were built just a little bit bigger, with a couple of extra systems, obviously for a higher price you would get a very capable, versatile and extremely cost effective ship. Instead of something which is largely restricted to a coastal missile battery within your own waters.
Alot of the systems have been miniaturized to the point where it should be possible to do something like this on a ship that is not much larger than this missile boat, we have small missiles like CAMM which don't require active guidance radars, we have radars that are alot more capable for their size, weight and cost, we have better electronics, hydrophones (submarine detection) and more automation and there have been improvements in materials and we now have unmanned sea and aerial vehicles.
A ship like this limited to local point defense, with limited anti-submarine capabilites would compliment more expensive frigates in any configuration, even a hi-low configuration similar to that which the RN has operated for decades and Turkey is adopting and as you described very well. Such would be a Littoral Combat Force as opposed to a single class of ship.
Jacob, there is also some use for ships that are cheap with a huge case of overbite! Especially if you are outnumbered. If a single ship of theirs can wipe out 4 opposing ships before going down, the opfor is going to have a very compelling case not to mass up in numbers, which might give other allied ships a fighting chance.
Definitely, that is why china has like >100 such ships, however I really don't think it would cost that much more to make a slightly larger and vastly more capable ship. Some sort of basic 3D radar for local area defence with the 76mm and a rim-116 slaved into it, a small hanger at the rear of the ship for unmanned sea/ground vehicles or RHIBs, some extra fuel. Perhaps even CAMM missiles and some sort of ASW capability.
Well, a close comparison size wise would be the RSN's Victory class corvettes, isn't really much different save that one is about 30 years old, and the fit shows. Harpoons instead of something newer and no stealth shaping.
That is actually quiet impressive and also extremely close to what I described, frankly I am surprised such a thing exists and especially on such a small ship and from that long ago. I couldn't see all the ASMs they are supposed to have in any pictures, it certainly looked like there was room for more.
Nethertheless pretty impressive, and they even mounted a nice drone on it with a very questionable but completely dooable recovery system. I am betting they are cheap enough and small enough that someone could develop one with with collapsible wings and stow it in containers attached to the side of such a ship, and leave the more expensive stuff in the mission hanger :p.
lol Jacob, *WHAT* hanger? It doesn't have a hanger, this is 30 years old, the Scaneagle IS packed into a styrafoam box beside the launcher when not in use! :)
Oh I don't mean on that ship. I mean if you developed a modern slightly larger variant, you could have a mission hanger with all sorts of tools and vehicles and kit in it, and free up room by chucking a couple of those cheap drones in a bunch of containers of some sort tied down real good to the side of the ship?
That way every ship has it's own nice little swarm to facilitate hunter-seaker tactics and help the ship conduct patrol missions. Or at least a system giving the capability too during wartime/heightened alert if the bureaucrats are too cheap to accept the possibility of a few disposable drones getting lost every year.
I quiet like them and sure I have commented about them here before, but in my opinion they are just not upto snuff for LCS duties. If they were just a tad bit larger they would have the room and weight budget which would give flexibility to add more systems and stuff i.e modular Surface-Air UAV hanger, perhaps a few CAMM missiles (doesnt need to have the best, most costly radar in the world), maybe even ASW capabilities, not to mention extra Fuel. Perhaps not all of them but even some would make these much more flexibile and capable.
Plus if you had some sort of a 3d radar for CAMM (doesn't need to cost much or be very powerful) you could slave the main cannon into it allowing it to serve a CIWS role and upgrade the rear CIWS station to RIM-116 (comparable weight/size) which has an effective engagement range ~3x greater than the phalanx. Ofcourse if all these things were done then the ship would probably cost ~100mn instead of ~70mn and maybe double that if it was built in the USA.
That boat and the LCS are so different for a reason.. totally different requirements.
ReplyDeleteThe ROC boat has no aviation assets except for maybe a small UAV and no module capability. It's a AShM carrier with little flexibility.
i beg to differ. want to know when the surface navy community started its fall from being an offensive force and turned completely defensive? when they started embarking helicopters onboard ships and they lost anti-ship missiles to make room for them. its a loose analogy but surface navy has had only one mission. defend the carriers, defend the amphibs and maybe...just maybe...hunt small boats. the LCS should have been a step toward the surface navy getting back to its roots of actually hunting the enemy but again its being turned into a platform for everything BUT killing other ships. Taiwan is doing it right. the requirements are spot on.
DeleteThe Navy needs corvettes and frigates. Lots of good discussion on this topic at CDR Salamander blog and Information Dissemination blog.
DeleteWe should be able to build some good corvettes for $150-250M and some hard hitting frigates for $500-600M.
The Iver Huitfeldt class is a perfect example of a modern hard hitting frigate that doesn't break the bank. Has the mission flexibility, missile systems, and guns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iver_Huitfeldt-class_frigate
But when you think about it ships like this are almost upto snuff, if they were built just a little bit bigger, with a couple of extra systems, obviously for a higher price you would get a very capable, versatile and extremely cost effective ship. Instead of something which is largely restricted to a coastal missile battery within your own waters.
DeleteAlot of the systems have been miniaturized to the point where it should be possible to do something like this on a ship that is not much larger than this missile boat, we have small missiles like CAMM which don't require active guidance radars, we have radars that are alot more capable for their size, weight and cost, we have better electronics, hydrophones (submarine detection) and more automation and there have been improvements in materials and we now have unmanned sea and aerial vehicles.
A ship like this limited to local point defense, with limited anti-submarine capabilites would compliment more expensive frigates in any configuration, even a hi-low configuration similar to that which the RN has operated for decades and Turkey is adopting and as you described very well. Such would be a Littoral Combat Force as opposed to a single class of ship.
Jacob, there is also some use for ships that are cheap with a huge case of overbite! Especially if you are outnumbered. If a single ship of theirs can wipe out 4 opposing ships before going down, the opfor is going to have a very compelling case not to mass up in numbers, which might give other allied ships a fighting chance.
DeleteDefinitely, that is why china has like >100 such ships, however I really don't think it would cost that much more to make a slightly larger and vastly more capable ship. Some sort of basic 3D radar for local area defence with the 76mm and a rim-116 slaved into it, a small hanger at the rear of the ship for unmanned sea/ground vehicles or RHIBs, some extra fuel. Perhaps even CAMM missiles and some sort of ASW capability.
DeleteWell, a close comparison size wise would be the RSN's Victory class corvettes, isn't really much different save that one is about 30 years old, and the fit shows. Harpoons instead of something newer and no stealth shaping.
DeleteWiki it up and compare, it's quite close.
That is actually quiet impressive and also extremely close to what I described, frankly I am surprised such a thing exists and especially on such a small ship and from that long ago. I couldn't see all the ASMs they are supposed to have in any pictures, it certainly looked like there was room for more.
DeleteNethertheless pretty impressive, and they even mounted a nice drone on it with a very questionable but completely dooable recovery system. I am betting they are cheap enough and small enough that someone could develop one with with collapsible wings and stow it in containers attached to the side of such a ship, and leave the more expensive stuff in the mission hanger :p.
lol Jacob, *WHAT* hanger? It doesn't have a hanger, this is 30 years old, the Scaneagle IS packed into a styrafoam box beside the launcher when not in use! :)
DeleteAnd look at the speed.
Oh I don't mean on that ship. I mean if you developed a modern slightly larger variant, you could have a mission hanger with all sorts of tools and vehicles and kit in it, and free up room by chucking a couple of those cheap drones in a bunch of containers of some sort tied down real good to the side of the ship?
DeleteThat way every ship has it's own nice little swarm to facilitate hunter-seaker tactics and help the ship conduct patrol missions. Or at least a system giving the capability too during wartime/heightened alert if the bureaucrats are too cheap to accept the possibility of a few disposable drones getting lost every year.
DeleteI quiet like them and sure I have commented about them here before, but in my opinion they are just not upto snuff for LCS duties. If they were just a tad bit larger they would have the room and weight budget which would give flexibility to add more systems and stuff i.e modular Surface-Air UAV hanger, perhaps a few CAMM missiles (doesnt need to have the best, most costly radar in the world), maybe even ASW capabilities, not to mention extra Fuel. Perhaps not all of them but even some would make these much more flexibile and capable.
ReplyDeletePlus if you had some sort of a 3d radar for CAMM (doesn't need to cost much or be very powerful) you could slave the main cannon into it allowing it to serve a CIWS role and upgrade the rear CIWS station to RIM-116 (comparable weight/size) which has an effective engagement range ~3x greater than the phalanx. Ofcourse if all these things were done then the ship would probably cost ~100mn instead of ~70mn and maybe double that if it was built in the USA.
Sounds like USN finally realized that LCS was pretty useless as it is designed right now....
ReplyDeletehttp://news.yahoo.com/pentagon-opts-upgrade-current-lcs-ship-design-222255682--finance.html
Whats the exact class designation of this ship ?
ReplyDeleteIt's a missile corvette, small thing, 1,000 tons only. Sledgehammer armed eggshells.
DeleteAnd it really isn't an anti-sub platform, no torpedoes. It's meant to really bite into big ships. 8 ramjet missiles.