By now you've heard about the choke hold "no bill" in New York.
Again, I'm going to be on the other side of the fence with the readers here but the cop was JUST FUCKING WRONG and the grand jury was stupid. Full stop. Let me explain.
Choke holds are illegal everywhere.
Police and military use what I was taught is a lateral vascular neck restraint. When applied properly it will result in a person losing consciousness in less than 10 seconds. If applied incorrectly it will result in death. The officer obviously applied it incorrectly, there were numerous officers around that could have easily restrained the guy. The guy threw no punches and simply pulled his hands away when cops wanted to put cuffs on.
Like the coroner stated it was a homicide. A negligent homicide but a homicide none-the-less. Tell me where I'm wrong.
UPDATE: Zebra Dunn prompted me to add this to the above. Its a tidbit of what I said in the comments....
What i am saying is that the cop attempted to apply a well known martial arts/self defense move, failed badly and killed a man because he wasn't proficient. I've used the hold myself and its not difficult to apply it correctly if you've been properly trained...even against a large opponent.So let me state clearly. The cop was within his authority. He was right until he misapplied a legitimate restraint move well known in the martial arts/self defense community and killed a man. It wasn't intended. It wasn't what he wanted but a man died. That's why the cop should be charged. Not because of what he intended to do but because of what he did.
Solomon siding with an African American victim and against cops?
ReplyDeleteHell freezing today. It's cold out there.
uh not really. i'm not anti-cop, but just like the Marine Corps i'll call it the way i see it. besides, i've been fully trained on the type of hold that this cop was trying to apply. he fucked it up. bad shit happens. sometimes you can have an oh shit moment and nothing happens, sometimes you need to take your medicine. the cop needs to take his medicine. indicted for negligent homicide, and perhaps an extended probation period but facts are facts. he misapplied a technique and a guy died. simple as that. am i mad? no, you can't bring back the dead. no amount of money will bring back the dead and no protests or rioting will change any of that. but if we believe in justice then he needs to be punished just like i would if i went out my front door, grabbed a dude and choked him till dead.
DeleteWhat's wrong with siding with a victim ? I don't really get the rationale behind that logic ...Agree 100 % with Sol's stance on this topic, both in terms of illegality of technique used and the fact that this illegal technique, which is not supposed to cause death but incapacitate an opponent, was not applied proficiently.
DeleteHecate
DeleteSolomon is typically pro-military and pro-law enforcement, so I expected him to support NYPD.
Got it slowman ! Just so there's no misunderstanding as to where I stand: I'm also pro-mil and pro-LE as long as laws and rules of engagement are respected (with some leeway as I know what the real world is like). But in a Democracy abiding to the rule of law, everybody has to be able to recognize difference between "shit happens" situations and things gone definitely wrong.
DeleteUsually but that's me talking from purely military point of view, things tend to get haywire when leadership is too weak to enforce the rules among their own subordinates ... It's rarely the case of bad officer or
Soldier, most of time it's a combination of circumstances weak leadership and pressure that causes these types of dramatic incidents
its really funny that Slowman lists me as pro-law enforcement when just a few days ago a guy accused me of being anti-police and stated that i should stick to military issues because i didn't know a thing about law enforcement. unfortunately for him i do know all about self defense techniques and in this post i didn't touch on whether or not the attempted arrest was legal or not. all i said was that the guy put an illegal choke hold on the victim and whether through incompetence, bad training, hyper aggression or piss poor form ended up killing a man. the worse thing is that its a relatively simple technique to learn and works better on fat dudes than it does on fit individuals.
Deleteadditionally it doesn't make me anti-police just because i recognize and comment on poor tactics being used. its just calling things as they are without bias.
I'm with you Sol. There have to be consequences for sloppy, over-aggressive police fuck-ups like this. Not letting the bad cop walk away and then arresting the guy that took the video of what he did. That's banana republic bullshit that doesn't belong in the USA.
DeleteAn indictment or not, Eric Garner's family will get to collect tens of millions of dollars in settlement from the City of New York, so I wish I was in Eric Garner's family's shoes.
ReplyDeleteif you believe that then you're either an extremely cold individual, have never lost a loved one or you're just plain stupid.
DeleteAnd what's in it for Eric Garner ?
DeleteHecate
DeleteEric Garner can rest in peace in heaven knowing that his beloved will be financially well taken-care of after his passing. That's a peace of mind that a lot of people in after life would like to have.
Fair enough that can work if you're told you're going on a 'no return' mission but as far as I know this guy intended to go home, not give up his life for
DeleteThe sake of his family's well being. Besides I know most families who lost someone in armed conflict prefer to get their dad or brother back rather than having some insurance money ...
Slowman, you're an idiot. If someone killed my father, brother, son, or cousin like this, I'd not be counting the effing dollar signs.
DeleteIs it illegal "everywhere", certainly not. It may be "against policy", but that does not make it illegal.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/de-blasio-opposes-anti-choke-hold-law-article-1.2009254
Did the GJ get it wrong? It depends. Much like a regular jury trial, the grand jury is limited on what crime it can bring an indictment on. If the Prosecutor only sought an indictment on 1st Degree Murder, then I can see the GJ rightfully not going for it. However, if Manslaughter was a lesser included charge, then I feel they should have gone for that.
All that being said, did the cop screw up? ABSOFUCKINGLOUTLY.
the news media are idiots. CHOKE HOLDS are illegal. lateral vascular neck restraints are legal almost everywhere. in this case layman's terms are insufficient. you MUST be precise in your language. that news paper you quote is just plain fucking stupid.
DeleteOn that we agree
DeletePiss poor. I'm damn good at these things and they have their purpose, but the incident it was used in was just dump. It's things like this that get blown up and make police departments look bad.
ReplyDeleteBtw got OC'd again today a part of the non leathal training sol.....fuck that I would rather get shot
snot bubbles bro! clear sinuses too...but yeah. just fucking shoot me! that i don't miss!
DeleteI saw a similar post somewhere else today. Wouldn't happen to be an admin for a Facebook page?
Deletenope. but i'm amazed that you didn't see the guy with his forearm draped across the front of the victims throat. you're the only person i've heard that is attempting to defend this which is surprising to me. even Levin is calling it wrong. i think alot of people were waiting to see what the conventional wisdom would be but this is too outrageous for even right wing zealots...which i can be at times...to defend. the panel on Fox News even said that it appeared outrageous.
DeleteI many ways this one is even worse than the Ferguson shooting. First there is a lot video that is clear for everyone to watch. In the Ferguson case we are left to wonder if there was a struggle for the gun. Second, there are up to half a dozen officers on the spot. How does this guy end up being put in a choke hold and dying for that? I know cops, many of them are stand up guys, but the tactics used here are questionable. The video though makes this outcome really bad, and this one will not go away because of the video.
DeleteThis one has parallels to a Canadian incident back in 2007. The death of Robert Dziekanski at the Vancouver airport after he was taken down by four RCMP officers choked and tazered several times. he later died in hospital. Why did this happen? He was a Polish immigrant, didn't speak English well. Had been in the airport for hours (12-14hrs) and got upset because he didn't know where to go what to do, got little help and then started to get mad and go berserk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dzieka%C5%84ski_Taser_incident
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6nx0Cx3uMk
2014, and one cop is on trial for perjury. Another was dismissed. Another was involved later in a hit and run while intoxicated and later dismissed from the force. So more lives ruined down the road.
In this case, in New York, I suspect more lives ruined down the road.
I must like being beaten up, but Sol I don't see where the officer locked it in. To me personally it looks like he did more of a headlock to take him to the ground. Once on the ground you can see the officer take his right arm and try to pull Mr Garner's hand behind his back. Then he moves to the upper shoulders area keeping him from moving until he is in cuffs. That's what I see in the video.
ReplyDeleteA department in my area had a similar death due to the guy being overweight and having asthma. Sad thing is the guy wasn't really that fat, but his own weight suffocated him during the handcuff process.
Would agree on most aspects of your account of the facts, and that's exactly why I'm saying the technique was not applied proficiently. Either, by lack of skills or lack of knowledge about potential risks, or sheer disregard for either one ... In any case, it would call for more - in my eyes - than dismissal by grand jury.
DeleteWish wehad had such leniency sometimes ... would have been like shooting fish in a barrel some days, without any regard for unintended loss of life around the 'target area' !
Hecate.. He died of a heart attack brought on by a "choke" and by being on the ground. Which says to me the ME played into political pressure.
Deletewhy can't you simply say that this officer applied a technique improperly and be done with this Tony? the visuals on this are plain terrible. the ME didn't give into public pressure he simply did his job. if you attempt to excuse every arrest that goes bad you eventually lose credibility.
DeleteI am not. I am going by what I see on the video. I never see it "locked in". I also see he is still talking after the officer is off of him. To me that shows this guy died from being out of shape, which does happen. When an ME in my area ruled that a taser killed someone. An agency still has an officer in prison for an in custody death that was ruled a homicide by the ME even though the doctor who did the research that was used to get the officer put in prison finally came forward and said his findings were flawed and the officer didn't do anything wrong. So there are 2 incidents where political pressure or in the case of the taser the ME's politics played into their findings.
Deleteok tony maybe we're seeing different things or seeing them with different eyes. More basic question regardless of kind of choke hold used, is wether this was necessary in that situation. There's a lot to be argued about legalities of this or that but one thing that makes a real professional wether in LE or armed forces is the ability to distinguish between various levels of threat or danger. When you have 4 then 6 officers against one guy who is not
DeleteEven putting up a real fight,
Can you explain why it is necessary to wrestle and choke him (illegally) to the ground ... If I had a squad leader who needs a crew of 5-6 to get a unarmed guy alive and ends up with that guy dead, i can assure you there
Would be consequences.
Yes, don't focus on the improper application of the choke-like maneuver. Focus on the fact that it wasn't necessary in the first place. Obviously so.
DeleteAnd... When you're attacked and have a heart attack, the attack itself is the damn cause of death. Otherwise... No heart attack. Duh.
All right I'll break down what I see and from what I have read. They told him he was under arrest. He objects verbally and then an officer grabs at his hand he pulls away. He is now resisting arrest. Now he did not use body force to push away so the officers are limited in force to be used. So if he is pulling away a joint manipulation isn't going to work. So the next is a takedown. I see the officer place his left arm to the left side of his neck and his right arm under Garners right shoulder. Then he tries to take him down and it doesn't work. Everybody rushes in and they get him to the ground. Within 2 to 3 sec an officers tells the takedown officer we have him and you then see the takedown officer use his right arm to reach for garners right arm. Garner pulls away and the officer switches to the upper shoulder and head area to keep him from getting up. It's at this time you can clearly hear Garner saying he can't breath which he obviously could or he could not speak. He does sound labored though when speaking. He may be feeling the heart attack at that point.
DeleteSo my contention is by New York's state statutes this is a hommicide, but if they used any other forcefull means of arrest like a taser or pepper spray it could have strained his heart to about the same point and caused a heart attack.
Now the contention that it shouldn't take so many officers would be correct if Garner was compliant it would only take one. At any point any of the officers could have used a punch to the face as a distraction to gain compliance faster, but they probably thought it would look bad on video.
If you have Facebook look on lawofficer or policeone for a good article on use of force.
Ok this article has some of the autopsy findings in it. Garner had no injuries to his neck or throat. He died of a heart attack. No hold killed him unless the officer reached into his chest and stopped his heart.
DeleteI did learn something new in my reaserch on this. I knew that some of the hotdog cart guys are involved with terrorists, but I did not know that the loose cigarette racket was also being used to find terrorists.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/12/03/actual-facts-Eric-Garner
Tony, I'm not sure I agree with some of your points about how the arrest was made, but I wont hold it against you ... I'm meeting an old pal of mine tomorrow. I've worked with him for several years so I think we'll talk about this topic before shabbes over a couple of kosher beers LOL. He served for years in one of the high speed units of the Magav so I trust his judgement ... Anyway I'll get back to you with the results of our beer brain sorrming ! will also have a look at that link you sent but now past bedtime for me ... To be continued
DeleteHad a quick look at that breitbart article ... Knowing the author as I do, I wouldn't put too much faith in what he wrote really... Same guy wrote chuck Hagel been financed by Hamas groups which
DeleteGives even hardcore JDL supporters a good laugh ... He's a staunch supporter of Israel,
Went to yeshiva school advocated for expelling Palestinians completely out of territories but he didn't bother volunteering for military service. Overall and just judging on that,
Definitely Not a credible source for me, even if he's some sort of lawyer ... Well guess the word 'lawyer' sums up his
Credibility pretty much !
There was a ny post article as well. I should of grabbed that one. Just google Eric garner autopsy and they pull up
DeleteAlso, restraining moves assume you are dealing with a healthy person. The victim was not. Not by a long shot. That should have been obvious. Very sad. And over, cigarettes. I guess we need a year-in-review. My vote is to the police in New Mexico that shot that homeless guy when he wasn't even a threat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tpAZObNZfI
ReplyDeletewhat has me shaking my head in disbelief is that people don't understand warrior culture...or even manhood anymore.
Deletei personally believe that the main problem with police interaction with the public isn't about brutality but how politicians have turned law enforcement into a revenue generating device. tickets, arrests..it isn't about stopping crime anymore its about generating revenue for a municipality.
but back to the police issue in the case being discussed. when you have "warrior culture" the first thing that most young men want to do is to test themselves. that means engaging in a violent confrontation. why do you think guys get liquored up and end up in fights! its not about alcohol, its about lowered inhibitions and the desire to prove ones self. if the USMC didn't have PT then it would be invented just to bleed off all the testosterone flowing in the barracks.
i guess no one noticed the cop that performed the choke. young guy. tatted up. other cops around him were telling him to ease off but he wouldn't. taking him down wasn't enough. after he was on the ground they had to rub his head into the concrete. just like contagion fire you can have contagion physical force. thats' what happened here.
but i agree. that new mexico thing was fucked up beyond belief. they got off too.
kind of a law enforcement equivalent to military 'overkill' ... always got to have your eyes set on your own guys too, at one point, someone might give in to impulse reaction and you don't want to scrap off body parts of the walls.
DeleteIdle hands do the Devil's work ... always keep the troops busy !
Well, you can stand around all damn day long on taxpayers dime arguing with some clown who just won't obey a simple request or you can wait till he finally goes ballistic and actually injures you or your buddy, maybe even grab a cops gun.
ReplyDeleteYa can't shoot them, tase them, spray them, or baton them, WTF are you supposed to do? Sweet talking doesn't fucking work.
I guess you could just make it a No Limit perp law and let the idiots run wild in the street with no repercussions until they actually kill an innocent person.
All Big Bubba had to do was STFD and do what he was asked and told.
Pulling your hands away when being hand cuffed is resiting arrest, it can even be construed as a violent induced resiting arrest.
Resisting arrest is a misdemeanor, if you use violence while resiting arrest it's a felony arrest and more force will be applied. More force is applied because the next step the perp usually takes is to start swinging or wrestling with the Officer.
My Background with this hold is: The Naked Strangle hold was the first killing with bare hands move I was taught at the age of seventeen, I recall the Instructors saying this hold can kill or incapacitate and there is very little leeway between those two endings, use it wisely.
Morale of story?
Do as the Police instruct you to do, be nice, be polite, courteous and helpful "LET THE HANDCUFF YOU IF THAT IS THEIR WISH" but, do what they tell you to do....or something sad and unforeseen may happen.
Don't fight back. Don't resist.
The poor guy made a bad choice so did the cop.
The Cop was not in the wrong and the judgement was right, the perp was in the wrong to start with and during the entire event.
Zebra! i'm not saying that the arrest was bad. i'm not even saying that the victim was right by not fully complying with instructions.
Deletewhat i am saying is that the cop attempted to apply a well known martial arts/self defense move, failed badly and killed a man because he wasn't proficient. i've used the hold myself and its not difficult to apply it correctly if you've been properly trained...even against a large opponent.
I agree, that is a dangerous hold to use for just any reason.
DeleteIt's not Police jobs to go hither and yon killing citizens.
Sol I'm with you on the revenue source. Yeah I believe in a ticket as a means of correcting bad driving, but there are departments that require so many to be written.
DeleteMy point of contention about the choke is he was still talking after the headlock or choke was let go, which means he could breath. Maybe not well but if your talking your breathing.
Sorry I saw you responded once up in another part of the thread, but yes I saw the forearm in front of the throat, but the officer would have to have some long arms to get a choke set in since it does not appear he used his right arm to lock it in. To me that would assume he was using his move more as a way to control than an actual choke.
DeleteNow, just to be fair and say I am not always on the side of police, the events in Atlanta when a Drug raid caused an innocent child to be subjected to the full force of a stun grenade and burned horrible in a raid where no drugs were found, the victim was in his crib and it wasn't even their home they were renting was a travesty of justice.
ReplyDeleteSoldiers in a war are not allowed to randomly throw Willie Peter stun bombs inside a place children are in, and to allow this and let the cops off was a crime.
That was a miscarry of police powers, the cops could have simply knocked on the door to serve a warrant and found out the man they wanted wasn't even there.
Instead they burned, terrorized and traumatized an entire family and their baby for basically nothing.
The child was a Latino as was his father, I say shame on the judge who let these idots go free after burning a baby in his crib.
My Dad always told me, Son don't argue with a Cop, he has a blackjack, he will beat you into submission, save it and argue with the judge instead, the judge cannot beat you with a black jack. he will beat you with a fine.
ReplyDeleteSince when are you not allowed to argue with a cop ? I think any citizen has the right to object to validity of an officer's claim. What he's not allowed to do, is resisting arrest. If the US is going down the road of never objecting to any police behaviour (not talking about physically resisting but speaking your mind in an appropriate manner), then good luck with democracy in America and the World.
DeleteRemember, you are, or at least you were, the leader of the Free World ! If you start undermining the fundamentals of Freedom in the US, I'm afraid we're heading for dark times
At the risk of loosing the popularity vote on here, I just had a look at the video that was made of the scene. Now i'm not discussing Tony's 'technical' arguments about the nature of the hold that was being used (I gave my opinion about that in a post above), but what strikes me as that 5-6 cops aren't able to overpower and restrain one guy, heavy guy but not sure about strong. The fact one of them is relying to a very agressive technique in a situation that didn't warrant such a response would qualify as a sign of incompetence, both from the group of officers involved and the one applying that choke, for different reasons.
DeleteIf, during any given engagement with a group of 'hostile' individuals, i had to call in air suport, that wouldnt make me a good military professional now would it ? Response has to be adapted and proportionate to threat, especially when it's about restraining/arresting someone and not about killing them.
If you're in a desert area, with a house full of 'bad guys', and no civies nearby, sure, call in a airstrike, i see nothing wrong with that ... but when you're dealing with kids throwing rocks at you, i'm not gonna ask for anyone to open fire with live ammunition on them ... Not sure, everybody understands the concept of 'adequate response'
A few years back I went thru some training with a rural southern sheriff department. The instructors looked like they came from the set of the movie 'Deliverance". And yet, when asked, they refused to even talk about using chokeholds. One admitted he had used it years before and stopped because he realized how the mixture of officer adrenaline and a squirming suspect made a proper sleeper hold incredibly hard and just too dangerous. The other had seen study after study showing the risk of accidental death or brain damage was too high. This guys who most people would think did chokeholds for fun.
ReplyDeleteRemember that you are cutting off blood to the brain when you are doing right, let alone when you do it wrong. Broken blood vessels in the brain and other side effects can come even when used properly. Nowadays even a simple headlock is discouraged due to possible neck damage if the guy resists.
Sure the military still teaches sleeper holds but they also still teach you to kick a guy's skull like a football and different ways to snap a man's neck. .That's fine if you are dealing with a potential terrorist, but not some smuck selling cigarettes.
The grand jury were morons. The only reasonable explanation I have heard...and it is unconfirmed...is that the overzealous prosecuter went for 1st degree murder. Any first year lawyer knows that the proper charge was manslaughter. Had the prosecuter tried to cash in on the anger of the Brown case by trying this as 1st degree charge? Still, the state should try and file an involuntary manslaughter charge. Remember, a Grand Jury verdict isn't about guilt or innocence just if there is evidence to file serious charges. There is no double jeapordy if they file under a different crime because the cop never went to trial.
EXACTLY RIGHT ON ALL ACCOUNTS! oh and let me add that i'll never understand why SOCOM is so in love with these bump helmets when the real deal helmet is used as a strike weapon both worn and in hand during close combat. which to me illustrates how crazy it is to see the militarization of the police (and ties together why i went on that weird circle). i wonder if this is part of that problem. what is taught and used battle terrorist or enemy soldiers cannot be used on civilians.
DeleteThink you hot the nail on its head Sol ... In a certain way war is coming home to America in a way most people didn't expect.
DeleteOr the prosecutor went 1rst degree, knowing that a reasonable jury wouldn't go for anything but manslaughter.
Delete