Thursday, January 01, 2015

At what point does "leave no man behind" come at too high a price?


The US military takes pride in the "leave no man behind" concept.  Its a promise to each servicemember that all efforts will be made to save you if possible.

At what point does it become too high a price?  Before you answer reflexively that its a point of honor and everything must be done, consider this passage from an Army War College Case Study of the Bat 21 incident by Lt Col Stanley Busboom, United States Air Force (this is a cached page, its easily accessed online though).
When SAMs struck the Bat 21 EB-66, five men were lost; that is a sunk cost that precedes all others in this story.2 On the same day, a UH-1H making a rescue attempt was gunned down with the loss of four lives.  Two OV-10s went down to SAMs with two creymimbers lost, a third becoming a POW, the fourth escaping.4 Six more lives (five cremen and a combat photographer) were lost when the Jolly Green rescue chopper went down on the rescue attempt. There is no single authoritative source that accounts for all of these men together, or suggests other losses in Sandys or strike
aircraft that flew on supporting missions. If the foregoing compilation is accepted, at least 17 combat deaths are relevant to the Bat 21 story.  From one perspective, the loss of these aviators may be the least problematic of the analysis. All were flying combat missions and were well  aware of the risks involved in the line of duty. On the other hand, it is possible to argue that the UH-1H crew was not on a properly planned mission
and was unduly put in harm's way. Similarly, the Jolly Green crew was sent in through withering fire--but then there was also a communication error in that sequence of events.
Thats the losses from the air side of the house.  Check this out from Wikipedia... 
Maj. David A. Brookbank, a U.S. Air Force liaison with the 3rd Division, reported, "The operation cost the 3rd ARVN dearly." He concluded that the restriction gave the North Vietnamese "an opportunity unprecedented in the annals of warfare to advance at will." He stated, "It seems logical to assume that many South Vietnamese troops died because air and artillery support were not available."[3]:120 He warned his superiors that the 3rd Division's officers resented the fact that the 7th Air Force would put thousands of South Vietnamese soldiers' lives at risk to rescue one of their own.[18]:318
American response to the NVA operation virtually ground to a halt[16]:251 as air resources were diverted to support the recovery, and for a few days defense of the northern border area was second in priority to rescuing Hambleton.[18]:318
One man went down and at least 17 other fliers died to recover him.  It doesn't count the heavy losses that the ARVN suffered because they were denied air, sea and artillery fire support.

Was it worth it?

Did the "leave no man behind" concept come at too high a price?

This question has particular importance to the USMC.  Tactical Recovery of Aircraft and Personnel is a hallmark mission of the Marine Expeditionary Unit.  The O'Grady Rescue and the recovery of the downed F-15 pilots in Libya were successful.  But we were lucky.  Mechanical problems, a stray bullet or a lucky RPG shot could knock down a helo and suddenly you have a squad of Marines along with the pilots they sought to rescue becoming bait for a meeting engagement no one saw coming.  In the future, at what point does it become a case of cutting losses and accepting the capture and/or public beheading of US personnel?  Or do we accept any losses to get back one or two pilots that went down in bad guy land?  I just don't know.

22 comments :

  1. We spent 17 men to recover a pilot because he was a pilot and very expensive to replace. Also, because of his rank, he may have placed a lot at risk if captured and the enemy extracted information from him. Would we do the same for a LCpl 0311?

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    1. well that brings up another question. after you reach a certain rank should you be excluded from frontline combat? the number 1 excuse for this policy (as far as i can tell) is because its essential for good moral...the same can be said about seeing 0-5's and above living in the mud and taking the same risks as everyone else. it made Puller a legend and was expected of every rank in WW2. we're a long way from that now. but the question remains. if you're a certain rank or have secret info that would be of benefit to the enemy should you be excluded from combat?

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  3. I knew the POW (Bill Henderson) in my past. He was the HR Director for the IT department I worked at earlier in my career. I didn't know the connection. A co-worker who was reserve Air Force clued me in. Good guy and very competent.

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  4. Actually he wasn't a pilot but an EWO (Electronics Warfare Officer) and there was some concern that he knew a little too much to be captured. That said, you could also ask why he was flying combat missions in the first place.

    The actual rescue was done by a US SEAL and a South Vietnamese commando who infiltrated the area and brought the officer out.

    Ironically the US had disbanded a force to do things like this not long before. The SOG (Special Operations Group) launched 'Bright Light' missions into Lao and North Vietnam with units of 8-12 Special Forces and Montagnard/Nung mercenaries. They were heavily armed and would be inserted near a shoot down if the chances of success looked good. They would connect with the pilot and head for a pickup point using their firepower to break contacts. Because of the secrecy of the missions, their part was excluded from the reports. Just the part about the helicopters would be listed.

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  5. the rescue of neil roberts , the SEAL that was captured by taliban in thakur ghar mountain , also cost many lives not to mention assest that have to be diverted to support the rescue..

    and neil was executed by the taliban anyway , so in terms of numbers it sure looked like a folly.. but morale-wise, could a soldier accept the fact that he wont be rescued if they got left behind / shot down in enemy zone ?

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  6. When confronting an enemy who follows the same conventions as oneself and atleast tries to give decent treatment to POW's, then one can see the logic in preventing needless casualties from rescue operations.

    But when one confronts an unprincipled bunch of barbarians as we all are now....who murder school children and make beheading videos as political statements and statements of intent.......then we must re-double our efforts to bring our people home. We need a "No One Left Behind 2.0" policy.

    A reboot of the existing policy. Rebot how ?

    1.) Rather than sending penny packets of SF and rescue coptors......a bigger force. A force that deal with the kind of counters that the enemy can throw at us.

    2.) A policy of equally liquidating enemy combatants in our captivity when they execute ours.

    3.) An increased tempo of operations, raids and "other stuff (lets not describe those things here)" when such things do happen.

    There are 2 elements that a "no one left behind" policy (old and new) affect. Element 1 is our Troops. And element 2 is enemy troops who now know what deal they will get with these kind of stunts. And we need to reinforce this message now more than ever. And reinforce this message that one one asks this question again.

    I belong to a country whereour more belegerant neighbours have repeatedly asked such questions only for us to be "praised internationally for showing great mature restraint" in such situations. Screw that.

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    1. totally agree but you do realize what you're asking force wise. you're talking at least two reinforced companies...enough helicopters to transport them plus spares...you're talking about dedicating at least a battery to the effort, diverting all air assets to provide top cover, electronic attack airplanes, a J-stars, refuelers and probably another battalion of Soldiers/Marines to act as a quick reaction force if things go south.

      by doctrine this becomes either a MARSOC or Ranger mission with all the bells and whistles attached. question remains though.

      what happens to 2/5 that is engaging the enemy in a different part of the country and needs fire support? do we tell them to suspend operations? what if the enemy is on the ball and notice the pause in operations and decides to go on the offensive?

      how do we explain to the mother of the Marine in 2/5 that her son died because all support was redirected to rescue a downed pilot. how do we explain it to a group of mothers if it truly goes bad for that unit?

      its a moral and morale question that i don't have the answer to. what i do know is that more value is placed on the lives of aviators than the average grunt. is it right? don't know. is it fair? irrelevant. its the way it is.

      one other thing. Berghdahl caused several casualties too. a max effort was put on for his rescue (even though the bastard deserted). was the cost in lives worth it? that unit did everything right and ensured accountability of personnel. one knucklehead walked off base and got people killed because he's stupid.

      i'm rambling now but take it to the air side again. what happens if a pilot does something that is outside the book that causes his plane to go down. do we risk people to save him because he was stupid?

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    2. oops, I wrote that statement keeping in mind ISIS and Pakistan. Not China. I dont think you will need all those Electronic Warefare Planes and J-Stars and stratofortresses to take on the ISIS. And against Pakistan....a more India Centric situation, we already have plenty of assets to inflict significant pain there. The Chinese dont behead.

      If you fight the Chinese and Russians(for which you would require all those heavy assets) , I am sure an agreement will be reached between both sides for decent treatement of POW's. Provided War is declared. If an asset is found snooping in a place where he is not supposed to be, with no declaration of war.......well we all know how that ends. It always ends bad.

      But yes, for further operations agaisnt ISIS and other non state actors.....not only our POliticians but our Generals also must do a re-evaluation of the efforts needed to rescue people(so that other operations dont suffer). And that re-evaluation can only be done with a rebooted policy. It is somethign that not only the US but India needs to do as well. A good deed that must be done well.

      Every stupid beheading of one of our own adds to hysteria and politicization of defence matters by paraoina instigating politicians amongst an ignorant voter mass. And that is what these terrorists aim for.

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  7. CSAR and to that extent a MEDEVAC by Air are a luxury , if you dont have the 'assets' to spare , or if you have to choose supporting the current fight or rescue-ing downed pilot , would you as commander make the decision to save a single pilot using maximum effort , while depriving the combat brigades from their support assets ?

    maybe the decision will be easier if the enemy have robust A2/AD system , then you as commander can decide not to send rescue based on high risk for the rescue force..

    The BAT-21 pilot was saved by a ground unit if i recall , a SEAL/LDNN operation if i remember correctly..

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  8. It's not a matter of numbers it's a matter of trust and faith. Every pilot who went down in the Bat 21 incident knew that if it were them down there, they could depend on their fellow aviators going after them. It was a matter of trust and camaraderie as much as any rule. It's no different than a marine throwing himself on a grenade to save the others in his platoon.
    Now think about what would happen to pilot morale if even a whiff of some higher-up not going after someone. Especially if we are up against monsters like ISIS. An American aircrewman downed over Nazi Germany had a 90% chance of survival in a Luftwaffe POW camp. Against ISIS, your life has an expiration date of a few months tops...if you are a man. For a female aviator you can be guaranteed gang rape and probably being sold as a sex slave. That's no propaganda but what is happening to women every day in ISIS-occupied territory.

    If someone in the administration decided to not go after a pilot because they were afraid of casualties, then we'd be the first ones screaming that they've abandoned the troops. We'd be probably just shy of mutiny in some Aviation units and Pilots would be resigning left and right.
    If a rescue attempt draws away too many resources then we didn't plan enough resources to begin with.
    It's a given that ISIS will start making traps for rescue attempts, its up to leadership to plan and prepare for that inevitablilty.

    If we are to question about value, my question is why are journalists so important? Christians and ethnic minorities were being tortured and slaughtered by ISIS for months. Then a couple journalists get killed and suddenly the media are screaming we should intervene and that ISIS is a threat to everybody and complaining that we are not trying to rescue those brave journalists. ...why are journalists so damn important when murdered Christians weren't? I have no problem letting our troops risk their lives trying to rescue our own, but where were those same journalists for the past 12 years? Oh, yeah, calling our troops killers and imperialists.

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    1. i'm with you in sentiment but lets consider the practicality of a given situation. i hate to keep rotating back to USMC operations but remember the rescue of the pilots in Libya? i'll have to look it up but i believe we launched two AV-8Bs, two MV-22 with a platoon of Force Recon and then a couple of CH-53E's with the helo company.

      the pilots were on the ground a couple of hours. if the Terrrorists acted like the NVA then we'd see a trap layed on and those MV-22s would have seen nothing...and rules of engagement would not allow our forces to fire on just people out in the open, so if they were disciplined and didn't shoot until those V-22s were on the ground then you have one V-22 damaged and down, a Force Recon platoon on the ground and hookin' and jabbin' the other MV-22 trying to setup to land to pick everyone up and suddenly the pilots in the CH-53E trying to fly the rotors off to catch up to the fight while the grunts in back are rechecking loadouts because this milk run just turned sour.

      what are the alternatives for MEU commander? what does he do? he has a total of 8 harriers. two are already engaged. he can launch Super Cobras but they're at the edge of its range. do you do a mechanized raid into bad guy land? do you keep feeding air assets in till you can create a corridor? luckily the French and the Brits would have helped out big time along with our own USAF. luckily this didn't happen. but you can see how a simple little TRAP mission can suddenly throw a HUGE wrench into a layed out air campaign. this time there were no other forces on the ground fighting. but what happens if there are? do you take away every air asset to go rescue the pilot? do you leave the grunts to die to save a fly boy?

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    2. Sometimes sentiment goes hand in hand with morale and national reputation.
      You are correct that sometimes the cost is high. While the Bat21 incident is an example of a rescue gone bad in Nam, we could name others like the Son Tay raid where we found no POWs but a lot bad guys.In fact we haven't always went after everyone. During Vietnam if you were shot down near Hanoi or some parts of North Vietnam there was no rescue coming. Pilots knew this, and understood this.
      But then think about what happened to those who were captured by Vietnamese: Literally years of torture and abuse, and being forced into "confessions" for enemy propaganda. Conditions were so horrid we literally rewrote the book on what to do if captured..
      In the Marine Op you describe above, it was one step from FUBAR, for sure. You are definitely right to question just how wise an Op this was. But what if they hadn't went in with ROE decided by pinheads or MV-22 that can't protect themselves. Those were command decisions that could have been made better. The Brass keeps yelling "drones, drones, drones", well where the #%$@ were the drones that could provide real-time assessment of the zone and maybe fire a hellfire or two if it saw a ZSU or a guy with an SA-7. Quite frankly, if we had rescued the pilots but blown the neighborhood to hell, the only complaints would have been from the people who will complain anyway.
      You ask how much those pilots are worth for the Libya op but we saw in Bengazi what would have happened to them. The Libyans raped and murdered a US Ambassador. Then let the whole world know it. The world saw our representative to another country raped and murdered and the US stand there with our cod in our hands. That is what would have happened to those pilots. The world see the US as a paper tiger and our pilots...no lets quit calling them pilots...our fellow servicemen murdered and possibly raped (they raped a male ambassador after all) Would the ambassador have been worth it?
      If you were a Marine in that MEU, and you heard them tell you to stand down because it was too risky and then the next day see American military men raped and murdered because you stood down how would you feel? They wouldn't see pilots they would see themselves. The next time it might be a pair of Marine guards at the embassy...a very likely scenario.

      Now comes the question--how many lives does it cost us to NOT go after them? We have seen how cocky ISIS got from holding journalists in front of cameras...what about a genuine USMC pilot flying an AV-8 over Iraq? Don't you think that might embolden them more, having a Marine officer to execute live on the internet? It proves to their followers that they are stronger than us and provokes them to fight all the harder, while our pilots feel we have abandoned them. In that MEU op you describe, what if they had went in full bore over kill not only rescuing the pilots but destroying any and all equipment they see and the people using said equipment. That might deter them from doing anything but staying away from downed pilots the next time.

      We also need to be smarter in terms of gear for these ops. I have seen an MH-6 set up for remote operation and the new Firescout C drone is the size of a Kiowa. So we can put a drone helo on the ground for the actual pick-up in some cases, with AC-130 on high providing cover. While I do think we are getting a bit drone crazy (I don't see them working well in a 2A/AD zone), perhaps we should look more to using them in the CAS role anyway against opponents like ISIS.

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  9. "its a moral and morale question that i don't have the answer to."

    It really isn't about morality, it's about practicality - pilots are hard to come by and therefore command greater attention and resources - they absolutely do need to be rescued. It definitely is a morale issue however, by knowing that the military has their back if things go south, soldiers can devote their attention to fighting.

    "what i do know is that more value is placed on the lives of aviators than the average grunt. is it right?"

    Yes. It is.

    "is it fair?"

    In any resource constrained scenario equality is swiftly replaced by asset value, more important people come first, end of story.

    In general, fairnes (usually this means equality, regardless of merit) can be ensured by making as many resources available as possible, this allows the society to "feed the incompetent" (exaggerating obv); alas, the neo-liberal SJW-type crowd (from plutocrats to professors) have been advocating resource reduction policies across the spectrum while ironically demanding more equality at the same time.

    In this case it comes down to not having enough troops, machinery and materiel to actually commit to the Iraq/Afghanistan campaign - and it shows.

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    1. i'm not so sure thats correct. pilots are highly trained but a more important asset on the battlefield? really? seriously? if thats the case then why are we wasting so many of them flying UAVs? why do we have so many that are pushing paper instead of buttons in a cockpit? if anything you see a glut of aviators in the military and while flying for an airline might make you a few more bucks (not sure) and give you a better at home schedule i've always heard pilots complain that after 0-3 they start getting pushed out the cockpit and into jobs other than. thats why they're leaving.

      which is a long way of asking. are you sure that they're more valuable? are you so sure that they're a low density high demand asset that requires special handling? if they are then the personnel system is more jacked up than i ever imagined.

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    2. "are you sure that they're more valuable? are you so sure that they're a low density high demand asset that requires special handling?"

      While I can't guarantee you that I'm right - only the brass can show the numbers they have, present the logic and their decisions and then defend them - it was told to me, way back when, by one of my former profs, later a high ranking MoD official (and I admit to never verifying this myself, but I'm willing to believe it on his word alone), that jet fighter pilots are a rare breed due to the required combination of traits, interests and capability (not just training), so much so that it was considered extremely difficult for smaller states to have a competent modern combat airforce.

      A drone operator, cargo pilot or any other low physical stress duty is another matter, even if it's still piloting.

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    3. the US military has taken fighter pilots out of the cockpit and placed them behind computer screens in Nevada operating UAVs. additionally once a person makes it past the rank of Captain they're doing other jobs besides flying. by the time they make Major they better start checking boxes which means staff colleges, making sure that you have your Masters completed, you damn well should have command time and in this day and age you better pray its combat command time, a joint billet won't hurt etc...i'm saying all that to say that after you reach 0-3 (P) you're heading anywhere but to the wild blue yonder. so with that being said if pilots are so darn valuable then why are so many of them doing jobs other than flying?

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    4. Okay, having defended our going and getting pilots in two posts on this thread, I have to say I never for a moment have thought them "worth" more. They are worth AS MUCH as any other military man or woman and I would support going to just as much effort to get a SEAL team stuck on a hill in Afghanistan or a Marine guard whose embassy is burning. I have been in two branches of the service, one being the USAF and for a short time worked a position where I dealt with pilots from all branches. I found pilots of all types to be very smart with a good sense of humor and an ego in proportion to whatever they were flying -- Navy cargo plane pilots the most humble and F15 pilots bordered on delusions of godhood...if you have ever seen an F-15 in action, you know why. The best of them treated enlisted with a lot of mutual respect knowing their lives depended on maintenance doing their job right. (The dumbest of them are probably now running the F35 program). But worth more...no. Would I die for one of 'em, hell yea. Would I think any of them worth more than any other serviceman, no.

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    5. Solomon: "so with that being said if pilots are so darn valuable then why are so many of them doing jobs other than flying?"

      Is America at war? Is any western country at war? With whom? In what way? BTW, does counter-terrorism count as war? Should it be waged as a war? And if not, why should we expect reasonable defence policies?

      But apart from systemic irrationality, which is present everywhere, visible to everyone (or, at least, it seems so to me) there is also the rather simple answer: you may be right. Compared to actual enemies, US warfighting capability is good enough (e.i. WW3 was deterred), compared to tribalist insurgents, low-tech affordable capability is more important than high-end strike force (since they literally aren't worth the dollars we shoot at them). It is therefore actually possible that the available pool of potential personnel is significantly larger than current needs - this would explain their under-utilisation.

      This would change if a real, both capable and willing, challenger would appear; outside of an alien invasion this seems unlikely (unless a change in technology makes the consequences of nuclear war irrelevant).

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      milspecmusings: "Would I think any of them worth more than any other serviceman, no."

      Well, as far as I was told, the higher-ups do; whether they are right is debatable, but I'm willing to believe that they are; and again this isn't a moral issue of equality of men, rather it's a practicality issue of who do you need more in a grim scenario where you're continually going to lose lives one way or another (not to mention the fact that you do expect the rescue operation to succeed, so you're hoping to get the pilot and the grunts back, it's not a swap).

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  10. No man left behind. But does a man have to go get him?

    I am the first guy who will tell you that soldiers are an anachronism on the battlefield, entirely outmoded in any condition where they are not functioning as perimeter security for a larger maneuver element which provides mobile 'back'.

    Modern exoskeletons like the HULC have to have preprogrammed sensors which detect the firing of nerves to activate muscles and accelerate the hydraulics accordingly, BEFORE the human actually begins walking. That means that modern exos have the baselines of robotics built into them as kinesthetic movement range maps and only the followthru needs to be added to the power stroke.

    Let. The. Droids. Go. First.

    I also am a firm believer in driving to the sound of gunfire. Draw a radius around an objective of less than 2 miles before the cavalry can come over the hill. Now expand it to a four mile radius. Your distance out has only doubled but the number of suitable landing spots which a threat must predict and cover has more than QUADRUPLED (12.57 miles area vs. 50.2 miles).


    Now further consider: Is a running man, moving over broken ground, going to get to an overrun conditioned engagement _fast enough_ to save the exposed force from disaster? No. If you are doing an eight minute mile for every 20 pounds of gear, with Interceptor and Grenades plus 8 clips and a helmet, you are talking about 10 minutes for the first mile and probably 15 for the second. OTOH, if you are moving along in a Mk.1 Wiesel or even just a gator at a solid 20mph, the distance from 4 miles is only 12 minutes total.

    And if you HAVE that four mile ring in twelve minutes, you can choose a point where the going is easy enough for the vehicle to keep it's speed up. If you are taking the boot express, your insert point is far more restricted.

    Mounted forces can bring armor, explosive fires, serious first aid, litters, ladders and rope.

    Mounted forces can exit that area at the same rate they entered and, with tank riders, move to an extraction point, clearing it with fires and thermal optics before deploying the riders as a screen and bringing the helo in closer if you have a casualty that can't be moved or which needs to leave NOW.

    In Vietnam we had Pink Teams (which went in explicitly to deal with blue and white team Loach+Cobra gunship spotted targets, usually in support of a downed airframe) and Mike Forces but they were largely designed to support missions where whatever had gone wrong had done so without the anticipation of engaged friendly maneuver elements.

    When the RAH-66 was busying being canned, they ran test after test to try and prove that it had superior real-time recon (PACER) and Drone Cooperative (AMUST) capabilities but the essential proof was that the helo was pushing an enormous column of compressed air through the rotor which could not be 'stealthed' and this plus it's noise made it have to use terrain masking like any other AAH while a smaller drone like Shadow or Outrider could do the same mission speed (say 100-120 knots) but because it approached sooner and higher, the UAV was able to straightline courses and could still get route recon done faster. But for special mission ops, nobody is talking about drones like Switchblade and FInder which the 'gotta go anyway' troop transport -carries- to the fight. dispenses at safe standoff and eyeballs the terrain as fighters with.

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  11. We've got to stop pretending that Men With Guns getting off the helo at the objective is the solution when men with guns in /trouble/ is what you are trying to save.

    Hmmmm. Brimstone, APKWS, Griffin, and Viper (sniper finder) gear. You don't have to be at 30,000ft to be above the trashfire. But if you want to be -effective- you have to be able to sort sheep from goats on your own and then drop or fire lethal care packages, to hit the enemy which your engaged forces cannot see.

    All on the first pass.

    Fixed Wings need CAS ordnance. Drones have a major edge here.that they don't need to hold, exclusively because a Harrier or Hornet with a vertical ejector (think He-111 bomb rack) holding 10-20 Griffins is going to stay on station and be able to use suppression as well as lethal strike tactics.

    Speaking of lightweight (less than) lethality. LTL is not given enough credit. We used to have, on the Skyraider, T-28 and early A-7, the ability to deploy CBU-14/22/25 gave some options to Sandy crews in that all used the six tube 'Christmas Wrapper' SUU-14 and could deliver varied effects from APAM clusters like baseballs to dogpoop passage denial systems to smoke and even BZ.

    I don't know whether particularly the chemical options would be looked upon very favorably today but the IDEA of LTL is still valid. Whether it be a laser that dazzles but doesn't kill from beyond the reach or safe separation at which threats can be discouraged. Or something like a 'phaser' which used high power microwaves to set up a travelling wave field effect on a body and then grounded that effect through the nociceptors. We need to think about conditions where we miss the snatch save and yet....and yet... HE'S RIGHT THERE! Particularly in MOUT conditions.

    Dazzler
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcOZvKRpy4Y

    SUU-14
    http://rogueadventurer.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/img_6947.jpg

    Wiesel off CH-53G
    http://www.g2mil.com/mak1.jpg

    VIPER Sniper Finder
    http://intranet.daiict.ac.in/~ranjan/sn/papers/Recent%20Improvements%20to%20the%20VIPER%20Counter%20Sniper%20System.pdf

    Drones Carrying Drones = CH-47/53 Carrying Drones (beyond Escort range?)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0bIgdfPPcQ

    AGM-175 Griffin
    http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/data/10044/upfile/201207/thumb2/20120712181414.jpg
    http://img.bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/data/10044/upfile/201207/20120713002951.png

    Dropped From VEBAL SYNDROM pods (15+ PGM Passes per jet, assymetric with EFT)
    http://en.valka.cz/files/vebal_569.jpg
    http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/67285

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