Many thanks to info-infanterie for the vid.
Watch the entire video. And yes. I know that its been edited for propaganda purposes but I mean seriously? Who the hell skylines their vehicle like that? Who drives a tank into combat against infantry without accompanying infantry? Who takes flanking fire and leaves the side of their tank to the enemy? WHAT THE FUCK WERE THOSE TANK CREWS THINKING!!!
And who is teaching those bastards where to hit our tanks? These bastards were trying to hit the ammo storage compartments, the engines and that space identified as a weak spot.
If this is how the Iraqi's are going to use our weaponry then we might as well just send it to the bottom of the ocean as an artificial reef. At least that way it will be of use to sea creatures.
Those Iraqi crews should be driving clown cars not tanks.
ReplyDeleteThey had infantry, note the M113s on the same road.
ReplyDeletei'm calling bullshit on that. just because you see M113's don't mean that they're carrying infantry. did you see any infantry out hunting the ISIS anti-tank teams? did you see any out incoming fire on the ISIS camera man from infantry in the bush? if you have tanks taking RPG fire and a general direction of that fire then even boy scouts would turn to and start hunting the bastards aiming at their big guns. so yeah. bullshit on the infantry being there to help. additionally that is in keeping with standard Iraqi practice of sending pure tank units into combat. its a hold over of the Sadam way of war that got their ass kicked twice.
DeletePerhaps this is cold, but we need export orders for the Abrams to keep the line open until the M1A3 comes along. Why should we care if they can't use it properly as long as they pay cash?
Deletebecause If they fall we would be needing those M1A3 to kill ex-Iraqi then Al-nusra or ISIL or Iranian M1A1 tanks. there is already evidence of Syrian groups becoming mechanized forces.
DeleteNo, we just blow them up with JDAMs that cost 25k. It has already happened.
DeleteMeanwhile we have thousands of M60s sitting in the desert in the South Western US that would be about as useful to the Iraqis as M1s. If they aren't smart enough to use them as anything besides a tracked pillbox.
ReplyDeleteThe Iraqi security forces were never trained about the smallest level.
ReplyDeleteAn infantryman can fire his rifle
A tank crew can drive and fire their tanks weapons, but they haven't been trained to fight as battalion or a brigade or a division since the fall of Sadams Regime.
To avoid pissing off Iran? To limit the ability if the army to mount a coup?
Who knows
But iraq doesn't have an army, it just has a very large number of independent tank crews and rifle teams.
Above the smallest level
DeleteI miss my nokiaberry keyboard
ISIS known since OIF where to hit our tanks. Hamas used military websites and forums to find weak spots on the Merkava and got kills by shooting the back hull door. Bad tactics Iraqis need better training. They should also buy TUSK II.
ReplyDeleteAl Qaeda knows where to hit our tanks. ISIS is suppose to be a totally different animal with totally different people. additionally the two groups hate each other so unless they're just passing this info out online then i don't know how a few primitives could easily get that information.
DeleteI dont think its any kind of mystery where the good spots are to hit a tank honestly. This has been common knowledge since the tank was introduced and became a critical piece of knowledge during WW2. Little has really changed despite the substantial evolution of tank armor technology since the war.
DeleteThe weak spots are very similar and if a highly trained and competent tank hunter team studies WW2 history (especially on the eastern front), they would be able to formulate effective tactics exposing the vulnerable areas of tanks and sending a shaped charge right through them.
Or at least obtaining a mobility kill, which also has value in a insurgency.
Sol Isis was founded as AQ 2.0 they are a splinter group formed when there was a disagreement between AQ's main office and the head of the Iraqi AQ subsidiary. they have all the AQ training manuals and packages but different ambitions then the head office wanted for them. so they turned there own way.
Deletethe black heart of ISIL is the core of what once was AQ in Iraq, but when the US started getting successful in Iraq they fled to Syria.
When the Syrian war started Ayman al-Zawahiri gave his blessing to a Syrian group to be AQ in Syria that's the Al Nusra Front. ut having two AQ factions in the same area of operations started causing problems the head of ISIL al-Baghdadi demanded to be in charge of the whole show. al-Julani head of the Jabhat al-Nusra believed he was in charge. Zawahiri backed Al-Julani which pissed off Al-Baghdadi although He and his Islamic state did get some backing by Al Nusra to move back into Iraq the two then splintered with Al-Baghdadi proclaiming himself caliph and AQ as his enemy.
ISIS and Al Qaeda used to be affiliated until the split somewhere back in 2013 right?
Deletehttp://foreignpolicy.com/2014/09/02/the-islamic-state-vs-al-qaeda/
Also, ISIS has many seasoned foreign fighters among their ranks including the fearsome Chechens and veterans from the Syrian war - perhaps their experience hunting Russian and Syrian government tanks has helped?
as a general rule the ass end of a tank is the weakest point. 90% of tanks keep there engines there the israeli Merkava have there small crew compartment there and also store extra ammo there. Groups like ISIL are sadly pretty sophisticated, they use social media and study a wide number of open sources. It wouldn't take long lurking on military forums to stumble onto the Idea of hitting the ammo and engine compartments of Abrams. Heck any Russian fanboi would point to the rear of the Abrams turret and proclaim it a weak spot as they would then follow it up by claiming the Russian ammo store safer. Of course a American would point to the Turrets flying off T72's in Iraq as a counter to that. Until we can find some other means of arming tanks the best counters are APS, Infantry and good tactics. The Iraqi's however seem weak on that.
DeleteAnd worse is that ISIL Al-Nusra and other groups are now getting there hands on armor including tanks in the Syrian-Iraqi civil breakdown war.
@getting there hands on armor including tanks in the Syrian-Iraqi civil breakdown war.@
Deletenot only, from Gadaffi boundless's storages too. Not to mention special NATO weapon (AT or sniper systems) or weapon from black-market outlets.
At my take Abrams is an excellent "long hand" but not an "anti-personnel" tank (no usual HE shells, no possibilty, not good in fire in movement). This vid proves it the next time.
ReplyDeleteBut tactic is a key factor here (IMHO). If it was a trap - why tanks didn't move? If it is an Iraqi roadpost assaulted by ISIS - where, blyad', fortification covers for MBT?
There is a Russian saying applicable to the tanks crews: "an idiot can broke his own penis")))))
As the result two good and costly tanks are lost as well as position.
There used to be AP Canister rounds. You really don't want to be anywhere near that when it fires.
DeleteStill not as good as a proper HE round for clearing out nests of infantry. All US forces are almost exclusively using anti-armor rounds against every target type. To the point that artillery has to be called down constantly because the front line guys can put holes *through* buildings, not actually hitting anyone. But not blow up those positions with direct-fire.
DeleteSure is good business to be making all that expensive AP ammo though. No reason to actually make an HE round for the Abrams when troops can waste several super-expensive AP rounds instead before calling in artillery, flattening the whole block, and causing massive collateral damage to civilians.
the unmoving tanks , maybe they already suffering mobility kill on their tracks ? i think their infantry in humvee and M113 already killed or ran away... the way the fighters brazenly got so close to the tanks, seem like we are watching the final stages of a battle, where they are in process of finisihing wounded beast..
ReplyDeleteAnd now their videos are in English.
ReplyDeletethe irony that these terrorists all multilingual (necessary when ISIS is a modern equivalent of foreign legion)
DeleteThe big issue is lack of infantry, tanks seem to be used as mobile pillbox to bolster a what seems a local check point with concrete tower and some sandbags
ReplyDeleteIt's a pillbox mentality. During Iran/Iraq and the Gulf War, Iraq would simply bury their tanks hull-down as pillboxes like the French in WWII. Complete lack of mobile tactics/doctrine in their training.
DeleteA few points.
ReplyDelete1, I have no idea what the tank/m113 mission was. Blocking position? Show of Force? Support by Fire? Assault by Fire? No clue.
2, I have no idea why the tanks were immobile. Told to stay put? Engine died? Transmission failure? It takes a lot of man hours of maintenance to keep an Abrams moving.
3, I have no idea why any infantry didn't set up defensive fighting positions. Staying inside M113s when the enemy has RPGs is just huddling in a death trap, so my guess is that the M113s were empty. If they weren't empty, were the Infantry told to stay put by their leadership? I don't know.
With all that I don't know, I can't make an informed opinion about what happened in the clip.
yeah. But it is feature of all such vid. Who knows may be this two tanks covered retreat of main Iraqi forces and died as heroes.
DeleteOfftopic:
ReplyDeleteRussian sniper-rifle MC-116M (МЦ-116М) in Asad's army
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/imp_navigator/17993765/203901/203901_900.jpg
taken here
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/imp_navigator/17993765/203901/203901_900.jpg
wrong link - correct is
Deletehttp://imp-navigator.livejournal.com/312224.html
I actually was quite impressed with the M1s myself. Look how well it stands up it all the fire it's taking. Even in the hands of idiots its a very capable and deadly weapon. And obviously it's easy enough to use that even idiots can manage it.
ReplyDeleteProps to General Dynamics (previously Chrysler Defense)!
I've noticed this too. Even after several hits in back of the turrets they were operational, it means auxiliary power generator work.
DeleteCumulative charge warheads need to score hits near perpenducular to armor face to have much effect ,you have videos of old T72s taking multiple Rpg hits and keep fighting.
DeleteAs I have said before:
Delete1. Iraq's oil refinerment capabilities are so poor that the U.S. Army were using a fleet of over 4,200 tanker trucks to supply their civilian needs (@ $.05 per gallon). Current prices are $.40 per liter so clearly they have not improved their home sourced gasoline.
2. Whatever is moving in this benighted nation has to have gasoline sourced from either overrun government stocks (Iraqi corruption is notorious, they sell the fuel for their runway sweepers and then wonder why the wind blown pebbles put holes in the wings of their now useless T-6C trainers) or from outside the country. Find the source, blow it up. New revolution immediately becomes static rather than roving, piratical, one. Once the war is no longer mobile, you don't have to bring tanks into builtups where cover for panzerjaeger units puts the armor at risk.
3. Issue a national ID card, complete with biometric ID and RFID tags that are read by telephone pole moutned HD video and interrogators. If someone shows up on video who doesn't have an RFID identifier localized to his person and/or whose video image doesn't match the biometric photo, follow him/her back to their hooch and roust them. If they are ISIL/ISIS (or simply refuse to say) field court them, right then and there.
Post video of daily executions and make it clear that shootings will continue until behavior improves. This is no longer about war but about law enforcement. You will:
A. Not touch the telephone pole sensors (death penalty violation).
B. Not help/house/shelter/feed the ISIL or any other rebel group (death penalty violation)
C. Live where you say you live and do what you say you do under a real name as listed by the NID which you carry with you at all times (death penalty violation).
D. Not mess with your utilities or try to steal/beg food from government sourced food depots or convoys as a function of not having an NID registered card (death penalty violation).
Failure to come sign up for your National ID Card = No food, no cooking gas, no water or electricity delivery to your address.
Grab them by the balls and squeeze until they choose which side of the fence they will live or die on.
These are a people with an average 87 IQ.
Deletehttp://www.photius.com/rankings/national_iq_scores_country_ranks.html
That's not a population which understands much but force and suffers no sense of motivation to accomplish anything for more than themselves. So you make 'themselves' the unit of social identity at risk which they have to respect and acknoweldge certain rules with.
Apply that force intelligently (telephone poles, RFID detectors, gunshot locators and video cameras are cheap enough to achieve cross coverage so that attacking them still gets the vandal photo'd and tagged) and then give them motive for social conformity as an immediately understandable notion of ache-in-belly starvation.
The power of war to destroy all around it's focus with organized deliberateness is also it's greatest weakness. If you have ever read the stories by Fred Saberhagen entitled 'The Book Of Swords' there is one particular weapon, Shieldbreaker, which will defeat any weapon, power or strength cast against it. But if you use it on the unarmed or the non-resisting, it is as useless as a swung pillow and it's wielder may be easily overcome.
This is what has happened in this war in that the guerilla force has gone to ground amidst the general population who no longer fear a Fallujah or Najaf condition of U.S. Sweep & Clear occupation.
So you isolate regions by cutting off their transport fuel (easy enough to do in the middle of nowhere where the ISIS units cannot marshal and move up, unseen) and then you lockdown those cities under your control while waiting for those which are not to begin to fail as ISIS cannot control what they cannot feed.
This is simple, basic, COIN stuff that the Army once knew from the days of Indians-On-Reservations control of unruly, violent, illiterate populations.
But it is not combat. Because combat is a mutual and you don't want an honor fight where killing grants status and reputation. You want _Law Enforcement_ which is where only one side can be right and only one side gets to punish and all consequences for illegal acts are not covered by the Geneva convention on military forces engaged in battle but by simple, internal, rules about foreign terrorists committing crimes in your nation. And co-conspiracy status by those who aid and abet them.
Something is a bit odd, look at the alleged Iraqi soldier using the tank as cover at 0:58. IIRC, most of the Iraqi army has been "westernized" with uniforms that look similar to Western ones (guess who was their supplier?), so why is that guy wearing a "skirt"?
ReplyDeleteCould this have been a con job? That it was not the Iraqi army being attacked but the ISIS getting hit? After all, all their shots of "their" people firing the RPGs, none of them really show the target and the firer in the same sequence, and they did capture some heavy equipment in the early stages of the "war".
That might explain the strange "uniforms".
You can't do effective monkey-see-monkey-do training which is needed for illiterates trying to learn the complex M-1. The logistics model: ditto. Get any...ANY fuel leak in the turbine engine compartment=fire. A fire that might not get put out. All that the M-1 deal for Iraq did was help some war profiteers. It had nothing to do with increasing combat capability. Also. Most of the rounds an M-1 would need in Iraq would be something similar to lets say the RuTech 125mm HE-frag. Simple. U.S. Army doesn't deploy anything like that, just a complex mulit-capable round. Unknown if Iraq had some basic sense and got the HE round Germany makes that will go with the M-1. All in all, M-1s run by Iraq, shouldn't be hard to put down. Another note on American training? 30,000 U.S-trained Iraqi forces, RAN when facing 800 enemy. Enough said there.
ReplyDeleteRussian pic about weak zones of Abrams MBT
ReplyDeletehttp://army-news.ru/images_stati/NATO_ne_hochet_voevat_protiv_Rossii_6.jpg
Umm where is the burned out tank footage? They show a dead guy at the base of the turret. Then show a blown up Humvee...if the M1 was actually taken out, then why aren't they standing on top yelling BS at the top of their lungs like they do in the rest of the footage? The dead guy is probably one of their own mooks who was trying to do something like blind it at best or just one guy trying to win a Darwin award for trying to take out an Abrams with an AK instead of am ATGW. The tank killing teams have LAWs rockets and RPGs...they might take out a track...in fact we see hits on the skirting that FAILED...and they may scratch the shit out of the paint but I don't see an actual kill or even an actual surrender by Iraqi troops just a bunch of ineffectual shots, a dead guy laying on a turret, a blown up Humvee (no challenge there), and an M1 in need of some blood and soot washed off. The crew of the M1 never stopped shooting even though the enemy was close enough to throw some nice movie Molotov cocktails. The Iraqi tankers were on the receiving end of an attack by M1's twice now. They saw uprated T-72s burn and M1A2s take hits that would blow the incredible Hulk to green lunchmeat. Give them an Abrams and they wont be chicken, they'll think they're gods.
ReplyDeleteMy worst nightmare is ISIS with captured Abrams rolling along taking no prisoners.
Still, glad you showed this. It shows just how good the ISIS propaganda really is. That is some professional editing, not some crap your usual underground blogger might splice together. It is a great piece of propaganda. I am sure some of their American and European volunteers saw stuff like this and thought a bunch of brave, poorly equipped men took out the most powerful ground vehicle in the US arsenal...and hopefully anyone from the US who goes to fight over there thinks an AK vs M1 is a fair fight will win their own Darwin award for taking themselves out of the gene pool.
on second look...I'm thinking there is a remote chance these tanks have been captured from the Iraqis and are being used as props by ISIS to make a propaganda recruitment film. All they are doing in the vid is traversing and firing their coax while sitting in the open, taking multiple hits and not moving while the 'valiant' ISIS anti-tank teams repeatedly emerge from the same cover to launch ineffective RPG rounds. The camera angle is rather....cinematic....
ReplyDeletePlease keep in mind I'm just a stupid ex USN corpsman and my screen name is "the Skeptic"....but I'm calling bull$#@% on the authenticity of this film.
entirely possible but the performance of the Iraqi Army makes this vid entirely probable. they are NOT the best practitioners of the military art.
Delete