Yeah its fictional but man is it cool!
Sidenote: Why does it seem like we're already behind in the tech race? The J-20 might be trash in real life but the saying "if it looks right..." sure can be applied to more and more threat gear.
Tuesday, January 06, 2015
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that thing looked HUGE on carrier deck.. seems bigger than a Tomcat
ReplyDeleteWhen they tested the F-111B on the Coral Sea (Midway Class, 45,000dwt class, 968ft length) the 69ft long jet was too big to fit on the angle deck between the JBD and the catapult run so they moved to the foredeck cats and lowered the deflectors while clearing the flightdeck aft to run the jet off. Fortunately, they were in a time window of naval aviators trying to do their carquals where they had the carrier completely to themselves.
Deletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midway-class_aircraft_carrier#mediaviewer/File:USS_Midway_(CV-41)_bow_view_c1983.JPEG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9iEAPQoJgI
While the jet performed beautifully, coming in so slowly that it looked like the pilots were deliberately planning their wire capture (122 knot approach, excellent for the time) it was the inability to operate the jet from smaller decks (as had also plagued the F-4 originally, requiring the F-8 to be retained far longer than it should have been) that helped sink the program in NavAir testimony before Congress.
Canards allow you to trim for pitch while maintaining sink rate on the glideslope but in this case, having so much wing so far aft on a common index line with the canards and with a long wheel base but also a long aft fuselage behind it adds up to a self limiting ability to control for lift at a constant fuselage angle as your wing AOA rises quite rapidly to the point where adding thrust only accelerates the stall.
You try and use DLC at the back end of the jet and you will teeter totter the nose down.
You drop the flaps completely while superelevating the canards to generate sufficient nose-up moment to remain flat approached and you are going to be a flying speed brake.
As your speed bleeds and you enter the backside of the thrust curve, the tail will want to waddle and the resultant Dutch Roll will wander the nose around the flightpath vector (the verticals are far too tiny for a naval jet, even all-moving), which will tend to make the final push through the burble zone harder than it should be as the jet will want to pigeon hop down the centerline.
NONE of which behavior is operationally suitable for a carrier jet.
Indeed, IMO, the J-20 is the Tu-128 Fiddler of the modern era.
It has an enormous wetted area along that stretched out fuselage and only moderate ruling and planform alignment efficiencies to be successful as a supersonic stealth air dominance fighter (every 10dbsm you add to frontal signatures is 15nm further out that a high power ground radar can see you, which means if you are supersonic, you just impaled yourself on somebodies popup SAM trap with that bloody canard alone).
The very length of the fuselage torsion box relative to it's wing carrythrough box center of lift turning moment will make the J-20 subject to longitudinal stiffness problems (there is a reason why the F-22 looks like a no-neck boxer in-air) and the situation with the WS-10s having insufficient high end compression (as thermal soak) thanks to their AL-31F design legacy (NOT TV117 as AL-41) doesn't support a realistic conception of supersonic persistence in a jet which is likely 10-15% heavier than the Raptor in EEW.
There is no doubt that the J-20 is a looker but so is the F-106. And while both are examples of a bygone era's understanding of aerodynamics, one had it's design start in the 1950s and the other the 1990s.
Especially if all's they are looking for is a cheap homeland defense interceptor able to gap fill across their enormous interior, the Chinese would be better off developing their Dark Sword UCAV-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u828lawOAF0
http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getasset.aspx?itemid=20094
As an independent project with it's own design engineering solutions rather than so completely giving in to tail chasing up the American manned system evolutionary backtrail, looking to 'get ahead' by imitation.
Just another mistake airplane, too big and heavy to carry any important payload to take off from a ski jump, with a delicated skin for a marine environment and not very maneauverable for landing oroperly, not really stealth with those huge cannards and with out double crew or electronic attack capacity.
ReplyDeleteThe really next Gen low observable Super Hornet will continue dominating the 7 seas for many years to come.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Uthdi30MZEE
I think the Chinese will use the J31 on future carriers, nice picture though!
DeleteUnrelated news, last Oliver Perry decomm, nothing to worry about, LCS is on it's way !LOL! Reading some of the comments is interesting on how much service the Navy got out of the Perry's and they held up pretty well, seriously wonder how the LCS class will handle that level of operations......
ReplyDeletehttp://news.yahoo.com/last-deployment-navy-frigates-soon-decommissioned-224836583.html
An F-35 with two engines -- the plans paid off.
ReplyDeleteOn China military and naval gear (kit), Feng is the go-to guy. For more info on J-20 (and PAK-FA) go here and scroll down to December 25.
That's a great site, been following it for awhile, Feng seems to know his stuff about China.
DeleteHe definitely does. He is a regular on Information Dissemination and has something up there now.
DeleteDon,
Delete>>
An F-35 with two engines -- the plans paid off.
>>
Maybe. The problem is that TSFC is doubled so even if you are looking at .7-.75lb/lb/hr vs. .91 equivalent on the F135; your fuel load is being consumed as though by an aircraft with a 1.41 appetite. All this while operating at a higher intermediate thrust ratings because the military totals are so much lower (less than half the F135s if the WS-13 is like the F404 at about 11,500-12,00lbf, military). This latter is important because jet engines are not infinitely spoolable. Flight Idle is generally about 60% of maximum IRT rpms, which is to say 7,000lbs X 2 =14,000lbf overall vs. the F135 which, at 26,500lbf is going to be in the same range of 13-14Klbf -but- only feeding one core.
I keep telling everyone that the J-31 is an attempt to build an F/A-18C class F-22, not an F-35. As such, it is a monumental misunderstanding of the nature of VLO design because the 5-7,000lb VLO penalty on structural volumes and systems weight is always going to be there and to push that through the sky with reasonable agility and supersprint pole boosting for BVR means F1000 class (23,750lbf) minimum thrust per side.
That kind of power in turn translates to an instant 13-15,000lb fuel load instead of the 10,000lbs of the F/A-18 and together, that kind of fuel and engine weight, means a much larger wing.
And now you are back up to at least F/A-18E (60ft) if not F-15C (63ft) lengths to get reasonable ruling and fineness ratio proportions.
The J-31 is a demonstrator, like the ATD-X the Japanese are working with. But unlike the ATD-X which is scaled around an enormous backend sufficient to test the aerodynamics for the 30,000lbf thrust engines on a production model, the J-31 is what is it with no evidence of a desire to upscale. Likely because the jet is not supposed to be seen as a competitor to the J-20.
Twins of any type generally tend to have more development potential as a function of accommodating weight but ONLY if you scale their engineering to the constraints of the mission fuel required for the thrust levels needed to generate a given degree of initial performance.
You cannot niche them artificially.
And the Gyrfalcon is supposed to be for export as an FC-20 successor to the JF-17 which is further crippling the jet with an F-20 moniker of 'not good enough for the PLAAF/PLAN...' set of spec requirements.
IMO, if they are going to half-ass things, the Chinese would be far better off dumping the pretense of VLO as shaping and materials penalties while retaining the internal carriage .capability (for drag) to sell a jet with Rafale or Typhoon class performance. But at that point, their brand new jet comes to market without any real leverage over the Eurocanards from a Chinese manufacturer with limited reputation in the military prime contractor role.
Which means you're right back to Tigershark country of finding the Line Opening customer to establish costs and support base. Which can only happen with surety if the J-31 is adopted by one of the two Chinese air arms.
To do that will require it to meet or exceed J-20 specs. There is no middle ground here. And an F-22 sized J-31 would likely beat the Chengdu Flying Dragon handily enough to embarrass the leaders who have put their reputation behind the home-team jet.
M&S
DeleteThe F-3 is not happening, the Japanese government keep pushing back the official launch of the F-3 program because they cannot come up with funding for it. So the Japanese government is using non-flying ATD-X(Whose first flight is pushed back to Summer of 2015 yet again) as a cheap smokescreen to appease nationalists who are looking at actual 5th gen fighter jet programs going ahead in China and Korea. Japanese heavy spending on the F-35 really doomed the F-3 program, there is a reason why Korea is refusing to take any part in F-35 industrial participation or set up maintenance facility, because Korea is saving every penny and redirecting them to its local fighter jet program instead.
It is kinda said to see Japan go does like this, but Japanese government is all but bankrupt and cannot keep up with its rivals spending twice(Korea) to ten times(China) on new weapons programs claiming their needs to defend themselves from new militarist Japanese aggressions.
Just another mistake airplane, too big and heavy to carry any important payload to take off from a ski jump, with a delicated skin for a marine environment and not very maneauverable for landing oroperly, not really stealth with those huge cannards and with out double crew or electronic attack capacity.
ReplyDeleteThe really next Gen low observable Super Hornet will continue dominating the 7 seas for many years to come.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Uthdi30MZEE
i understand you promoting superhornet above everything else, but copy pasting your own post 2x , isnt that a bit much ?
Deleteas for J20 , i think it is not for carrier ops, or at least the info available publicly indicates its J31 for carrier use. As for Superhornet dominating 7 seas , i doubt it , unless it is another COIN ops with guerilla / insurgent type enemy ..
Expensive clean Stealth designs are impractical and are becoming obsolete against advances in computer capacity and multi band radar tecnology, it doesn't matter if those X-Band Stealth planes come from the US or China.
DeleteThe combination of more than 500 SH/Growler with spiral and evolutionary development, with plug an play sensors, receivers and stand off air to air and air to ground weapons plus the advanced Jammers and decoys are the way of the future. The Navy knows it and is planning to combine Growlers and SH to share data to locate any fancy and expensive clena airplane,
At the end, capabiliies, numbers and affordability matters.
http://news.usni.org/2014/04/07/navy-preparing-aggressive-growler-operations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-_FTUm4G1E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0acJ3xyhaJo
Here's something Feng did last March on USNINews.
ReplyDelete@Don. It is pretty incredible how fast the Chinese are going with J20, it wouldn't be surprising at all to see some LRIPS jets coming out soon so by 2018-19 you get early IOC to break it down further in service before going full-bore production, pretty scary when you think about where USAF will be with F35 by 2019 and how long it is taking USA to get there.....it feels like the Chinese are doing what takes USA 20 years and squeezing it into 10 years, maybe even less!!!!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-chengdu-fighter-takes-big-step-2015-1
nico, most americans i know are looking down on china's capability in industry , technology and in military matters. these americans are what you categorized as average uninformed public, as they have no interest in international stuff, yet strangely they subscribe to the belief that china is inferior in everything.. you are one of the few americans that seem to understand china enough not to underestimate them..
Deletei forget who said this but someone once said hubris and overestimating your own strength can lead into disasterous war , which i immediately think of The destruction of Crassus's legions at the hand of outnumbered Persian cavalry. The roman legion at crassus's time is still the best roman can offer , unlike those legions at the sunset of roman empire..
@ nico
DeleteIt does seem that way, on J-20. Perhaps China has more and better engineers?
--from a 'study engineering in China' site:
"China is today the largest producer of engineering graduates in the world, with some 600,000 passing out of its colleges and universities last year. Compared to India and China, the United States produces only 70,000 engineering graduates every year. All of Europe produces just 100,000."
Like, it took what, four years to redesign the C tailhook? And the Pentagon response to the engine failure at Eglin has been criminal, EXCEPT FOR the anonymous air-worthiness people who stood tall and said NO. The acquisition chief Fran Kendall calling it a "one-off?" --“Optimism and stupidity are nearly synonymous.” --Hyman G. Rickover, a superb engineer
The whole F-35 program will be useful only as a bad example in the Pentagon's project manager school, and the J-20 program appears to be the opposite.
@Don
DeleteTake into account that a large majority of the engineers we do graduate go to the high tech industry as opposed to the MIC. Plus many of out top engineers over the last 4 decades are now retiring or near retiring and there certainly is a numbers problems in general. However, we still have a critical mass of enough good future engineers graduating from top universities, so the problem probably still goes back to corporate culture and the procurement process as the basis of our problems.
@Don
DeleteYet that 600k engineers wont retro engineer russian engines until 2020. I would prefer less engineers and more psycologists to deal with the 600k deaths by overworking that happen each year. Dam what is worth educating and preparing people like Luo Yang, the creator of the j-15 if he dies by overwork at 51 taking to the tomb all his knowledge. We western will be probably behind in industry output but our social situation(one can call it even social evolution) surpass their.
And i'm not fearing a tech surpass either,for example their ws-35(a basic need for what they are preparing in the south sea) still has the double CEP in confront of the vulcano munition that is developt by a minor european country.
Remember that we need to hold China just for the next decades until their one son policy will bring them an epic silver tsunami. I'm fearing more India that doesnt have confucianism nor population control and is more caotic.
Fear India ?.....aww come on man. The only Indian thing you need to fear is spicy food and if for some reason bollywood music becomes a fad in the states. If gangnam can be a hit.....here we come.
DeleteI'm trying to understand what you are saying Meriv, But I don't know what is more confounding - your English or your rambling assertions and opinions that seem rather divorced from reality.
DeleteDo you care to share your rationale on why China's demographic bomb will be an "epic silver tsunami" as you state it? Most reports I've read only list is as a risk of falling into the middle income trap, but hardly a recipe for disaster. Also, please explain to me why you think India is more worthy of your fear? They are one third of China's economy, and have a lower growth rate. Their government has yet to demonstrate it's ability to implement social policies or large infrastructure investment. Their foreign policy is non aggressive and they are a good global stakeholder working within the current international system. I also don't see the link between Confucianism and economic/geopolitical power in this particular instance either.
Sorry for my grammatic but i'm using a smarthphone while being in the hospital. I will explain better what i meant with my post at home, i know it looks like blattery.
Delete"epic silver tsunami" , is this the Politically Correct way to call the famous Chinese Advantage in population nowaday ?
Delete@ Meriv
DeleteYou are totally right.
The progress don't come thanks to the engineers but by the freedom of thinking of the visionaries. Engineers only put numbers to explain what others conceive, and normally they migrate where they find the bedt conditions to devellop all their potential..
North America and the free world in general is entering in to a new age of evolution in human kind, it is call the revolution of collaboration and free sharing of information.
Theocracies and totalitarian regimes start to suffering the pressure of this real sunami, you can call it arab spring, orange revolution or students protest in Hong Kong.
If you add the 3D printing to the equation you will understand why kids in Edmonton or Boston are producing cheaper toys in their garages than Chinese semi slaves kids in huge factories.
China like any other totalitarian regime is just another mold idol waiting to fall if they do not adapt to this evolution.
@James W As a consequence of their one child policy China in this moment has the 80% of its working force employed, as estimations says:
Deletehttp://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/26/us-usa-fed-china-idUSBRE92P14T20130326
By 2030 their GDP growth will be around or under 1% (since this year they already fell under the 7,5%) until now most of its growth came from just population displacement from the rural area to the city in for the increase of its secondary sector.
Now combine the fact that
1-moving from the primary to the secondary has a greater effect than moving from the secondary to the tertiary (plus to have a competitive tertiary market one need flawless competition something that the PRC’s corruption obstacle)
2-a way greater portion of your population is older than 65% and if for westerns the silver tsunami is slowly coming but it has come gradually for China thanks to the one child policy (for which I’m really grateful since it is ecological) it will come abruptly.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/China_Sex_By_Age_2010_census.png
This means that China must start working on this problem, the sooner the better, the apogee of this will be in 2030,their GDP growth will almost stop like us Europeans and they will have to spend a bigger (but really big) portion of it in welfare state (without taking in account other problems like their private debt growth that is bringing them to the same Japanese lost decade).
Meanwhile people like my father that is a baby boomer is already over 65 here in Europe and by 2030 we will be almost outside of our own “silver tsunami”.
Now these factors leave to the Chinese a window of action between 2020-2030(I say 2020 because it is around that time the J-20 will start being operational and their engineers will be able to retro-engineer the Russian engines) in which they must surpass us technologically, gather experience (as they are doing now with UN missions) and prepare for the conflict while facing the rest of the countries in the south sea that are also fast growing, with young population and industrializing to which we can do a tech transfer in worst case.
Why I fear more India then China? Because at least in China the Confucianism control the masses.
This article is from 2007
http://www.economist.com/node/9202957
The corruption hunt in 2014 has been the confirmation of what the articles says, another example of it is:
http://www.economist.com/news/china/21616988-decade-ago-china-began-opening-centres-abroad-promote-its-culture-some-people-are-pushing
Meanwhile in India you still have religious conflicts, not that in China doesn’t have them (Ürümqi) but in India is in a bigger degree like what happened to Christians in 2008 or in 2002 in Gujarat riots. It doesn’t have either population control.
I don’t fear direct conflict, just conflicts in general that brings death and to me it looks like that it is more probable in India than in China.
Sorry Sarabvir i haven't included terrorist attacks like 26/11 but i was thinking about them too
DeleteOnce I saw a video that mentioned that China will be replaced by many other countries combining their increased productivity methods using disruptive technologies loke the ones I just mentioned. The future is in open mind economies and democracies. Not in massive totalitarian regimes called "capitalist".
DeleteCollaboration Revolution:
http://youtu.be/3gIgSST0Ehc
http://youtu.be/IS4Xw8f9LCc
http://youtu.be/ChKwIUhx_ic
http://youtu.be/-Ktlgl9HXFY
3D Printing in Space: Jason Dunn at TEDxEmbryRidd…:
Deletehttp://youtu.be/d97jOf_NgPw
Someone know something about what happened in Paris?
ReplyDeletehttp://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/07/europe/france-satire-magazine-gunfire/index.html
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteTwo heavily armed men entered the Charlie Hebdo office in Paris' 11th district and opened fire, SPG police union spokesman Luc Poignant told CNN affiliate BFMTV.
ReplyDeleteHe said the attack, close to Place de la Bastille, at least three police officers were injured. The Paris mayor's office said at least six people were wounded, according to BFMTV. Journalists and policemen are among the victims in the attack, said Hollande, who added that at least four were seriously wounded.
Witnesses also spoke of seeing a rocket launcher, according to French media reports.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteTwo gunmen entered the offices of a newspaper that was known for its satirical articles and drawings about religion in general and Islam in particular.
DeleteOne was armed with an AK-47 the other with a RPG. First they shot the two police officers who were guarding the building, then they sprayed the entry hall with bullets and went up the stairs to first floor, apparently looking for the editors of the papers, who were having their weekly conference at the exact same time. This alone suggests the operation had been planned carefully, because they knew where and when they would be sure to find their targets on the premises. They proceeded to shoot and kill the director of the newspaper, the editor in chief, and two senior journalists. Then they exited the premises shooting at a police car that had arrived within two minutes of the attack being called in.
The newspaper is located in the Eastern part of Paris. They drove towards the northern outskirts of Paris where they stopped a driver randomly and took his car, before entering the motorway and possibly escaping for the north-eastern part of the Paris area.
CCTV and satellite imagery is being analysed as we speak to try and reconstruct the exact itinerary of the gunmen. It is not known wether the police has solid information of the gunmens' whereabouts, but it s a possibility. This might either turn quickly into a siege of their hiding place, within the next 24 hours, or a manhunt of huge proportions in the whole of the Paris area.
Witnesses said they heard one of the gunmen say they were gonna "avenge the prophet" as they entered the building. Islamist terrorism background is abslutely certain already, even though authorities are not saying so at the moment, the identity of the gunmen being unknown or not having been made public.
There are already 11 people dead, 4 in critical state, and several other people injured. This is the most deadliest single terrorist attack France has experienced in 50 years. Latest terrorism attack was in 2012, with the so-called Mohammed Merah lone wolf attacks, Beofre that, there hadn't been an organized terrorism attack wave since 1995, linked to Algerian islamic terrorists hijacking AF flight to Marseille and later planting bombs in several subway stations in Paris.
Gonna be interesting to follow what happens. The French had been very good up until now at averting attacks on mainland, but with the recent influx of fighters coming home from Syria, this writing was on the wall for some time and many security experts had been warning it was just a question of time before a cell or lone wolf would manage to avoid surveillance again and start a real bloodbath.
Three ways forward: 1. they are found quickly and siege leads to their death after SWAT assault, 2. they're arrested after a longer manhunt (very unlikely as they are gonna to strike again soon) and 3. they are gonna strike again soon and will get into fire exchange with police, SWAT and army SpecOps.
At the moment the whole of the Paris area is being turned into a city under siege. The national SWAT team of the French police (400 men strong) is on high alert, so is the military police's Special Intervention unit (350 men), the Paris police swat team (50 men) and the 30 000 coppers who patrol the city everyday. Military reinforcements are also being deployed as we speak.
Hopefully CCTV analysis and exploitation and HUMINT info will lead to an arrest, or rather - considering these guys are djihadis with a death wish - to full on assault.
Just had a friend on the phone. The two gunmen were dressed in black, wearing balaclavas and bulletproof or balistic vests and said they were from the Al Qaeda Yemen branch ... wether this is true or not remains to be seen. They spoke like native French speakers.
DeleteAccording to a witness who saw one of the men take off his mask at some point, the man looked like he was of mediterrenean/north african origin.
Looks like SWAT teams aren't just for cops any more. Copycats!
DeleteGuess the cop who tried shooting them with his SIG didn't really stand a chance at 100 feet distance ... I'm pretty sure when they get confronted by real SWAT, it will be a different story, the sooner the better !!
Delete100 feet for SiG Pro is normal range, you can without too much problem put a bullet in to man head from that range. But that cop was taken by surprise, no cover, standing on the middle of sidewalk, it was amazing he was not shoot dead at first place not to mention return fire.
DeleteHope the proper equipped cops find those goatfukcers and put a magazine in both of them from close. This will be a justice.
I was looking a HQ blog i comment frequently, and then this video showed up
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi2f4c-0H5Q
Probably is a fake video.
Deletenot a fake, that's what happened as they were escaping ...
DeleteJust FYI, the cop they shooting at point blank range was 42 years old and his first name was Ahmed. so they shot and killed a fellow Muslim in addition to 11 "kufars"...
DeleteYeah hecate.
ReplyDeleteJust showed up at the BBC
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30710883
Sol, not sure you getting this, but if you want to be on top on things, you better get this story going !
DeleteLatest word I got is that the whole SWAT dept of the French Police is being deployed in the north-estern district of Paris ("Seine-Saint-Denis") ...