via Kyiv Post
The U.S. Embassy in Ukraine has presented the Ukrainian Border Guard Service with a prototype of the Ukrainian-made 'Kozak' armored personnel carrier (APC), at a base in KyivSo we're buying the Ukrainians armored vehicles and since we're sourcing them from Ukrainian industry we're propping up that country.
"To date, the United States has delivered dozens of armored pick-up trucks and vans to the Ukrainian Border Guard Service. The 'Kozak' is larger and offers a higher level of protection. Delivery of the prototype helps fulfill one of the commitments noted in the June 4, 2014 White House Fact Sheet on U.S. Security Assistance to Ukraine," reads a statement posted on the embassy's website on Tuesday.
The "Kozak" is the first prototype of its kind designed by "Practika" Kyiv enterprise. Meeting Ukrainian Class 4 armor standards, the vehicle is built on an IVECO chassis and includes a v-shaped armored hull to guard against anti-personnel mines or other explosives.
"The prototype is analogous to a light version of a U.S. Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicle," reads the statement.
Russian is supplying the rebels, separatists or whatever you call them with arms and munitions.
Isn't this the classic definition of a proxy war? Have I missed the fact that the West is at war with Russia?
UPDATE: Ukrainian President says that Russia has 500 tanks, APCs, IFVs and other armored vehicles inside his country....read it here.
Proping up goes much further that couple of mrap type vehicles,US is bartering with Croatia to replace their Mil-8-17-24 fleet with refubished blackhawks while Mil fleet would be transfered to Ukraine. Nato members old soviet gear is in vouge now.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/croatia-to-supply-14-helicopters-to-ukrainian-air-forces-362326.html
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-croatian-helicopter-swap-triangle-mi-8s-for-uh-60s-026696/
A load of Hungarian T72 is rumored to have ended up in Ukraine.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/hungary-sells-t-72-tanks-to-026666/
Err, of course it is and has been.
ReplyDeletePutin is using Ukraine and particullary Eastern Ukraine as a bargaining chip with the West - he knows he has the best cards in there and he uses them.
He wants to have Merkel and Obama personally going out and talk with him about Ukraines fate, fate of ex-Soviet periphery.
He is basically playing North Korea card - ''If I wont get my candy - in this case negotiations in style of Helsinki 75 - I`ll start big war in Europe. I might not win it but I can start it, however I know that you are afraid of any conflict at all.The prospect of war in Europe scares you, I`m not afraid to send - as Ive been doing - my men to die for my aspirations. I know that you are afraid of sending your men to die for some fucking Latvia or Estonia''.
Latvia and Estonia both sent soldiers to the Gulf to fight with us. why would you say "fucking Latvia or Estonia"? i consider them pretty solid allies. they did what they could and never bitched.
DeleteI`m Latvian myself who knows Estonian language.
DeleteI say it how they, Putinists - not to confuse with Russians - view us. Their deputies dont even hide it, not a week goes by when some idiot gets on main channel defaming us.
Putin knows that by large all the 'defend allies'' is a bluff, sadly - however he knows how weak his economy and army,for now is, to pull off operation in Baltics.
God forbid if their rearmament program which is expcected to end by 2020 or so actually succeeds.
ok. i'm a bit touchy about our Western European allies bordering Russia. i think we would come to the aid of them and i don't think Russia would dare.
DeleteThe problem is Russia could throw everything at the three Baltic states and crush them in a day.
DeleteHe couldn't win a war with NATO, but it would take the US weeks to deploy ground forces, he grabs them, or bits if them, declares a ceasefire, and what, the US restarts a war 6 weeks later?
Maybe
Bush restarted the first gulf war, but I wouldn't be sure of it, too many votes to avoid escalating
to Eldererrbig
DeleteI dare to correct some:
@I`ll start big PROXY-, HYBRID-war in Europe@
@ I know that you are afraid of sending your men to die for some fucking Latvia or Estonia@
I guess for the Baltic countries main danger is in economical and political intervention of Russia. Specially in circumstances of western sanction Russian business will be searching more lacks of law in Baltic countries to resolve business aims. The business will invest in politicians who can play card of “Russian minority”.
@at the three Baltic states and crush them in a day.@
DeleteFor what?
Money and children of our elite are still in the West. Each full-scale war is not comfortable for our oligarchs (instead of our military).
I would love to know if US can, actually, really deploy troops in a hotspot zone (active hostilities) so close to the RF borders ... it's a honest question, so don't blame on me ... I'm following this blogs for so long and it's all about the lacks of logistics and right gears of Nato partners, including the US ... and I'm really talking about a hot drop in a hot zone, against RF itself, even not "inside" RF, but in range of S400's and so ... because, putting aside ideologies and lots of fantasies about global operations, looks that even Nato Commander in Chief imediatly dismissed the idea of direct suport of Ukraine as impossible .... and "impossible" to that alliance is a very hard word to say in a TV statement, no?
ReplyDeleteI don't have an idea about if is it possible or not, but i'm sure that Iraq scenario (months of preparation, shipments and so) won't happen in regard of RF, and the US behaviour about NK nuke's crise wasn't specially strong to ensure it's doable without so much risk or cost, and about Iran im waiting the output yet ... thus, i'm kinda confused about some empty assumptions that US could fight side by side with eastern allies or, even, suport directly Ukraine, with troops just to make sure that it's on top ...
In the other hand, it's seems chaotic and vague the rethoric about RF direct intervention on Ukraine ... it could be just my lack of perception, but, as long as i can't see any evidence of t90's, ka52's, mi28's and some big arties or balistic missiles on the field it looks more like a low level proxy war (using only outdated gear to boost the pro-RF rebels - maybe to keep them under strict management over time) and not a full scale effort pushment, as could happen soon or later ...
Returning to the main point: can US really intervene on east europe so close to the RF borders in a hot event??? I'm not talking about one company here, other there, maybe one or two division like in Korean theater (to hold long enough waiting reinforcement) ... and I'm not talking in terms of future optimal paper tigers like F35's and F22's, but about forced entry on a real conflict zone ... worse: against RF, wich should be fighting so close to their suply lines ... so, again, assuming that US is the largest millitary power on the world, and i'm sure it is, i can't find out myself if it can achieve local superiority against RF over east europe on each beach head i tried to figure out ... my knowledge about logistics are poor, tho ... so, can someone here explain me better?
(otherwise, I will stick with idea around the nuclear deterrent only option) ...
Thanks
you're not talking about a true forced entry situation. we already have forces in the area and allies neighboring any of the countries that might be the battleground.
Deleteas long as we can control the sea...and we can without a doubt...then its a simple matter to fly troops into Germany, sail them over to the Scandanavian countries and simply convoy to the warzone.
Don't the Russians still have protocols in place from the cold war to stop the US from convoying to the warzone such as heavy usage of attack subs and their TU-22M Backfires? If so the US would have to reestablish a presence on Iceland for our fighters to intercept the Backfires as well as some P-3s or P-8s to do ASW meanwhile the convoys would be relying on destroyers (No cruisers because they would be attached to carrier strike groups) to protect them and not many at that so they would be exposed to attack from Russian subs.
DeleteNot a lots going to stop the US landing at Brest and driving to Moscow.
DeleteBeyond turning the route in to a nuclear wasteland or accepting losses in the millions, tens of.
That was the point, Charlie, because hot means hot, and it shoudn't be like Iraq deployment over months ... also, baltic should be overheated on this scenario ... but Sol made it clear that Nato can, actually, controll the seas around (baltic?), which leds me to another questions, like "untill"? Newest frigs and destroyers projects from RF and PLA are really freaking ppl out with supersonic ASM's ... I'm not sure, tho ... in a couple of years, i will ask again :)
Deleteto Edson Jr
Delete@Iraq scenario (months of preparation, shipments and so) won't happen in regard of RF@
I guess against my country Pakistan-India scenario is played. In direct-war scenario Russia will use strategic and tactical nuke weapon (a lot of signs mark it) – Western military (and civilization as well) have no real possibility to avoid this scenario. After Ukrainian Nazi appears in Russians TV-sets Putin always have high rating no matter the crisis, sanctions or a next corruption scandal. So Russia and West will be dancing long proxy-hybrid tango.
@of t90's, ka52's, mi28's and some big arties or balistic missiles on the field @
You are completely right.
A short moment of attack a road-block near Volnovaha (where a lot of people died in a bus) was fixed by two cameras at once. But millions of Russians, being defeated by brave Ukrainian “cyborgs” every day, even a single camera doesn’t fix.
AFAIK US are already pre-positioning a lot of military equipment in strategic locations around Russia...
Delete@Info-Infanterie: looks that now informational warfare are the main battleground all around ... lies and lies ... but i'm very sure that russian army can't be trully stoped by ukrainian army in a true thrust over it, even with small effort ... it isn't the case, here, as i asked if US could even do ... ofc, if its doubt if its doable by US, im assuming none else could, aside PLA ... and looks like our western leaders are crazy to face both of them, together ... unfortunally, i'm a western and i'm afraid im on the wrong side of this knife, specially because US hard and soft power are laggin far behing it's rethorical ... 20 years ago, US stake on world economy was like a third ... now, barelly half of it, not to consider the true and real economy ... in the long run, then, things tends to turn a bit more confused, and it's hard to figure out real capabilities of nations (to not talk about whos the bad guys) ...
DeleteAbout WCT: it's clear that ukraine lost it 3 days ago, more or less, when they tried to outflank it in a 100m fog LoS ... ofc, it they're fighting now on the edges to keep Pisky-Sand and Avdiivka, the whole central complex is lost ... if i'm not wrong, militias took some high rank ukraine officers as prisioners ... and this outcome was sure when they'd show EW jammers on their way to WTC on friday or saturday ... again, ukraine is blaming every russian but themselves due its lack of readyness and tactical competence (even to fight a low level rebelion), as much as was expected when they decided to fight in the range of russian artys in august, and expect the scorpion to keep its promisses and do not hit the poor frog ...
About Volnovaha: I'm sorry about the civilians ... and I'd check out vids and analisys from both sides ... it was a big mess, and it was probably a BM21 hit indeed, but the mine camp just on the buss side really made me think about how stupid or panicked is the ukrainian army ... people was just walking right on its side, and not a single soldier there to avoid an accident ... hummm ... in terms of propaganda, looks that their President brought a piece of the bus to Davos today, making the case over and over again ... shits happens at wars, tho, like bombing civilians with drones ... again, i'm a western but i can clear see your point (i'm assuming you're russian) ... double standard, isn't it the name of the game?
@militias took some high rank ukraine officers as prisioners@
DeleteIt is not properly confirmed still.
@expect the scorpion to keep its promisses@
Political bla-bla-bla has one logic, military logic is completely another (IMHO). If you allowed your back is not covered well – you are an idiot yourself. Ukrainians had a lot of another variants of tactic, avoiding being close to Russian border. But no, they placed themselves directly under “scorpions sting”. So who is a doctor for them then?
@their President brought a piece of the bus to Davos today,@
In an another country this piece of the bus firstly is an evidence of a crime and must be kept by relevant LEO. But in Ukraine it is used for another propose.
@double standard, isn't it the name of the game?@
Normal thing for Russian politicians too. I consider the Donbass rebellion as an extremely useful outlet of global and regional tensions. It looks like all regional and vast majority of global players are interested in this – so Donbass lingers in war still and will be in foreseen future (3-5 years). Of course no one of the above said players is not interested in Donbass civillians' Fate.
@ Jacinto -- US armed forces is no threat to Ru Fed, ok. Especially today and for at least the next 10 years. Don't believe such propaganda and disinformation as part of the unfortunate psyops and info-war being waged today. e.g., Baltic states armed forces will not be invading Ru Fed ok. Japan will not be invading Ru Fed., etc. Are US armed forces possibly redeploying back to various allied member states as part of defensive show of resolve? (Deterrence?). Perhaps there is an increase lately as part of reactionary deployment, but still, nothing anywhere near level of a credible offensive threat. E.g., are B-52s again being stationed in UK, since they departed in 2010? But I would fully agree with you that a discussion to de-escalate the offensive build-up in Euro theatre should begin. Could agreement to remove Iskander and other cruise missile assets from Euro theatre coincide with US agreement to remove any SSGN boats on patrol accordingly? Could agreement to refrain from mobilizing S-400 type assets near NATO borders coincide with US agreement to suspend any future plans to deploy ground-based ATBM system in central Euro member states? Deployable Tactical nukes to be capped? etc? It's worth a dialogue at the very least.
Deletemy whole point was to say that it isn't necessarily a given for the US and NATO to have complete control over the seas. The Russians aren't idiots they'll at least make it a fight cutting off the European NATO countries from at least the full flow of men and supplies from the US and Canada.
Delete@ Yuri: I don´t know what are you talking about. I have never said US are a threat to Russia, and the idea that Japan or the Baltic States are planning to invade, or will invade, Russia seems preposterous to me.
DeleteOn the other hand, I have read Mr. Putin saying “If I want to, I can take Kiev in two weeks,” and Russia's Deputy Prime Minister Rogozin saying he would go to Kiev in a Tu-160.
By the way, this Rogozin guy came to Brazil (I am Brazilian) last December. His behavior towards Embraer would cover any polite russian in shame: he was disrespectful, arrogant, very aggressive. After his visit to Brazil, I started to believe that he would be glad to start a war.
In short: while I do not believe US is a threat to Russia, I do believe Russia is a threat to Europe.
And I simply stated a fact: US military is stockpiling weapons around Russia. It should be obvious that stockpilling weapons - without bringing troops needed to use those weapons - is not an offensive measure, but a defensive one.
It seems to me that if somebody is believing some psyops, It´s not me.
Edson Jr.,
Delete>
I would love to know if US can, actually, really deploy troops in a hotspot zone (active hostilities) so close to the RF borders ... it's a honest question, so don't blame on me ... I'm following this blogs for so long and it's all about the lacks of logistics and right gears of Nato partners, including the US ... and I'm really talking about a hot drop in a hot zone, against RF itself, even not "inside" RF, but in range of S400's and so ... because, putting aside ideologies and lots of fantasies about global operations, looks that even Nato Commander in Chief imediatly dismissed the idea of direct suport of Ukraine as impossible .... and "impossible" to that alliance is a very hard word to say in a TV statement, no?
>
Why do you think the fighting for regional airports has been so fierce and the Russians are now pushing miniature OMGs into the Ukraine on an almost daily basis?
Operation Airborne Dragon
>
Task Force 1-63's lead elements: an MlAl tank, an M2 Bradley Fighting Vehicle, an M113 armored personnel carrier, mortars, and a battalion command post (CP) equipped with satellite communications arrived at Bashur Airfield to support the opening of the northern front in Iraq. With them came scouts, military police (MPs), and a combat service support platoon.
Task Force 1-63's armor systems were nearly impervious to Iraqi weapons systems. Therefore, it was no surprise that shortly after TF 1-63's arrival in the Iraqi Theater of operations, enemy divisions in northern Iraq began to disintegrate. Much of the Iraqi military capitulated in the north by 10 April 2003. Following the Iraqi regime's rapid collapse, TF 1-63 and the remainder of the 173d Airborne Regiment were attached to the 4th Infantry Division (ID) and rapidly transitioned to stability operations near Kirkuk.
>
Truth be told, if Iraqi RepGuard units had /wanted/ to take out the TF operating from Bashur (or anywhere inbetween Bashur and Kirkuk), they could have done so, provided they acted in a timely fashion and/or used things like IEDs to disable the small heavy-track armor contingent around whose inimitable weight of fire all force protection was centered.
A-Dragon wasn't about that, because we knew the Iraqis were paralyzed, ironically, given what they were protecting for want of gas as much as leadership. It was a testbed mission for regaining the ability to do a 1941 Crete style insertion.
Much the same would or will happen in the Ukraine with C-17s operating from stretches of roadway, if necessary, precursored by the arrival of C-130/CH-53 delivered CCTs, BEEF and Phoenix Raven teams, dropping off SMALL mobile group units of armor which then do their own engagement of these Russian mini-OMG counterparts.
The Russians can rush the location or try and put fires on it but so long as it's in and out, from low level (and at night, ala SOLL missions) the will likely get a fist full of air as the armor will simply leave RORO off the back and leave the area while -any- GMTI on the Russian's part, including loft of MRLs, will get them a full fist serving of SFW to the face.
And thus, instead of Kursk rewritten (about 250nm from Kiev or Donetsk) you will have a bunch of, at most, mini 73 Eastings. Where company sized, armor-heavy, maneuver elements play head butt games with Regimental equivalents (70 vehicles) as a means to fix them for airpower.
The Russians will lose. The Russians will nuke American staging areas and airbases in Poland and other, former WARPAC, areas. The Americans will nuke Russian staging areas and logistics centers across the border.
And then things will get serious in the Ukraine. I swear to god, it's Twilight 2000, all over again.
hummm ... i was thinking about Latvia or Estonia or Ukraine, and some degree of resistance by RF and logistic issues related with T3R numbers, but thanks for your answer ...
ReplyDeleteI have doubt, that Spartan APC (producer is Streit Group from Canada http://www.armored-cars.com/vehicles.php?cat=military) are truly license-maid-in-Ukraine, but the APCs are used by Ukrainian a lot of time before this day.
ReplyDelete@Have I missed the fact that the West is at war with Russia? @
Russians have all basements to feel themselves in proxy-war with the West, after the saw Ukrainian Nazi on Maydan and Nazi volunteer’s battalions. Nazi, “unnoticed” by the West.
Shoo away, Putinbot.
DeleteBgg. You forgot to give a link on some article about millions of Russian trolls, attacking naïve Western minds and souls.
DeleteMay be I’ll try some counter-argument? Just relax and try. It is not so difficult.
Your grammat betrays you, common mistake one can find among your kind.
DeleteNice hyperbole tho.
Bggg. I again confused "I" and "you". Shit happens.
DeleteOfftopic:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXgBMZ2vLEc#t=285
Fresh vid from the Donbass airport. Ukrainians obviously lost the new terminal too – this day at least.
4:30, its a claymore mine or a Russian one?
DeleteThe miner said it was MON with an electrical fuse.
DeleteIt looks like the "31st" road-post near Krymskoe village is taken by rebels too.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TirWt-JeAw8
Taken, counterattack failed... 29 and 28 still in Ukrainians hand.
DeleteIll be honest, things only get my full attention when they are either interesting or hit close to home. So wile wars , invasions and such like Georgia or some African thing, or even Russia annexing the Crimea offend my sense of justice that was fleeting. When however Russia facilitated, if not actually themselves did shoot down a plane full of my countrymen I got invested.
ReplyDeleteI might be biased.. but I try not to be and my option is that you can not put all sides in the Ukrainian struggle in the same place morally. Where one side used diplomacy, trade, promises, so basically talking. The other used guns. There is a big difference. Diplomacy, treaties and such are normal.. starting a war is not.
This might become a proxy war, but it is not one yet, it simply is to one-sided with the west struggling to decide what they can and want to do. They fail to do as promised in the Budapest Memorandum which made varies nations responsible for Ukrainian security and sovereignty, wile Russia has no problem doing there thing.
O and making a bad photo-shop using a standard factory Boeing and a Su27 to stand in for a Su25 to 'prove' an Ukrainan fighter shot down MH17 is not only NOT NORMAL, but also makes me wonder about the capabilities of the Russians.. even my lil nephew could make a better fake.
One more point: the current Ukrainian government is a frightening bunch of right wing nationalistic nutters themselves. Not actually people anyone normally wants to get in to bed with..
where's the satellite photo proving the soviet invasion ? if any ?
ReplyDeletehttps://twitter.com/RusEmbassyUAE/status/507226671401824256/photo/1
DeleteWho needs satellite photo's when individual civilians and soldiers alike , including Russians make and post photos?
DeleteBut.. I must say, I am taking claims by the other side about size and strength of Russian involvement with a grain of salt or two. That being said, Buntalanlucu, are you telling me Russia did not invade at the least Crimea?
The "location" app in Vkontakt give more intelligence info where Russian soldiers are then any satellite.
DeleteIndeed.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@ Yuri Sponse,
ReplyDelete>>
E.g., are B-52s again being stationed in UK, since they departed in 2010?
But I would fully agree with you that a discussion to de-escalate the offensive build-up in Euro theatre should begin. Could agreement to remove Iskander and other cruise missile assets from Euro theatre coincide with US agreement to remove any SSGN boats on patrol accordingly?
Could agreement to refrain from mobilizing S-400 type assets near NATO borders coincide with US agreement to suspend any future plans to deploy ground-based ATBM system in central Euro member states? Deployable Tactical nukes to be capped? etc? It's worth a dialogue at the very least.
>>
U.S. bomber forces would deploy out of Greece or perhaps Turkey to reach Russia on a timely basis. The Greeks need the money more and have balls of steel, the Turks are, as ever, neutralists who play all sides with a strict view of who is closest to their own shores.
Point being that the U.S. could, within 10 days, have a force in being in Eastern Europe which could deliver endurant CAS/OBAS that would make hunting the Russian Mobile Groups fairly simple (8nm standoff with WCMD SFW from 30K+ after F-16CJ and C-130 MALD hunt the S2A threats).
Russia is in the same boat with Iskander (which shouldn't be nuclear capable but likely is, at most, weeks away from having such a warhead bus refitted) and her air launch cruise weapons but is also far closer to the Ukraine which effectively means that she can be back in the game faster than the U.S. can respond. Since tactical nuclear responses are what is holding back the U.S. (strategic nuclear responses being conserved for a CONUS hostaging misssion and due to high yield fallout patterns), there is no way Russia will pull back her theater nuclear capabilities, nor would the U.S. be anything but fools to believe they were 'gone forever' if she did.
SM3IIa/b is a _local_ capability. Unless a weapon passes right overhead, in terms of ground track, it's not capable of cross-track engagement as midcourse defense. This essentially makes the Iranian Shahab IV/V threat the only real one which the system could be biased against.
So long as the Ukraine remains in the Russian SOI.
If you want to intercept Russian MIRVs headed for Europe or the U.S., you need a GBI based weapon which is capable of /at least/ 5-7km/second intercepts and likely closer to 10 to account for positive maneuvering advantage. That's essentially a silo launch ICBM with a KKV cluster of it's own. Not a cheap solution.
_Only_ BPI/API defense works against particularly the emergent Topol followon as high energy threats on rapid rise boosters. And that means, again, getting as close to under the ground track as you can and winning the mass sprint with a high impulse motor to Mach 7-10 in the high endo.
The S-400 doesn't face this issue (i.e. Assymetric threat conditions) because, thanks to INF/CFE the U.S. has no Pershing or Lance or even Gryphon with which to force a theater nuclear confrontation to it's peak without directly involving U.S. strategic forces as either delivery assets (again, freefall only, thanks to abandonment of AGM-131) or as based (ICBM/SLBM) systems which will isntantly call down countervalue fire on CONUS targets.
All the S-400 does is play cat and mouse with U.S. tactical air power exponents as escorted by Stealth and roll back assets (MALD, Tomahawk, Growler, F-16CJ) which is to say that pulling them back from the borders of NATO countries (or those aspiring to become so) will not make a difference beyond saving the odd, aggressively place, Triumf battery from being 'accidentally' blown to hell by a multiwave Tomahawk strike, low to the horizon.
ReplyDeleteAs long as NATO stays in the low to medium altitude arena (under 12,000ft) there is nothing the S-400 can do to keep Western Airpower from operating over Ukrainian airspace. Nothing.
Responding with Kh-55 cruise missile attacks on local (Polish and Czech) airbases makes more sense since the Tu-95/160 bombers can fire them from 200+nm inside Soviet airspace and retire to deep internal airbases, untouchably. S-400s -might- have a role here, in swatting the odd F-22 that tried to OCA sniper penetrate without a dedicated EWF lowering of Russian radar receiver S/Nrs.
The Russians have the AS-16 Kickback (aka SRAMsky). The U.S. has ballistic ordnance which may or may not have been updated by GPS guidance kits for lofting but are still generally worthless pieces of crap. There is no point in 'discussing' a capability which would _have to_ be delivered via strategic penetrating stealth platform to reach targets of merit.
The B-2 is a national SIOP asset. To employ it for anything but Strategic Warfare is to risk the MIRVs falling on Chicago as much as Whiteman. Not that Chicago couldn't use the urban renewal.
As I have long said, this is a stupid preconditional fight that will begin with LOMD cock fencing and end in a Guns Of August condition of 'how the hell did we get here?' not unlike the Twilight 2000 wargame condition.
The Ukraine is Cuba to the Russians. They stop us here or face their entire SOI 'hemisphere' becoming infected with Western materialist hedonism. They will _not_ give it up because their leadership, much as the leadership in the UK during the runup to BOB, knows that the next step is the fragmentation of Russia itself.
The West is less led than driven by power mad 'idealists' who want World Dominion no less than the Soviets and will have their NWO trophy grab, even if they pull back glowing stumps for fingers. If we don't reign in our own idiots, this will end in rivers of blood.
There is one thing here that I am not sure I agree on.. that is the drive for world dominion on either side.
DeleteDepends how much one believes in conspiracy theories vs base human drives. Wile I think conspiracies are a fun subject, I tend to believe more in the psychology that humans are driven by more simple personal goals.
In this case Putin, Obama and the other leaders involved might really have goals much closer to home: them or their party staying in power. What better way to distract from your own internal problems then to start or fan the flames of an external one. What better way to empower your base then to appeal to their nationalistic tendencies. There might very well be an other rather personal motivation going on for Putin: frustration about the Gorbachev, Yeltsin years. Compare it to the theory that Bush jr went to war in Iraq because he felt dad did not finish the job. A lil simplistic.. but human beings are rather simple a lot of times.