via Jerusalem Online.
Rebel sources in Syria claim that American commandos tried to rescue the Jordanian pilot that was captured by IS last week, according to a Turkish news report in El Andalul.I've held fire on this one but a few things just didn't seem to make sense to me. By all accounts the allied forces are flying to high for ISIS to touch them and Syrian Air Defenses are cooperating fully.
According to the report, Jordanian pilot Muaz Yossef El Kasasba was hidden in a private house in El Raqqa, an IS stronghold. The rebel sources claim that US battle planes and their allies carried out diversion bombings on IS targets in the area in order to permit two US commando helicopters to enter the area.
Few details are known so far. There is no further confirmation from any other source. The helicopter tried to land in a private home in El Raqqa, but upon coming under heavy fire, was forced to leave the area. The failed rescue attempt increases the risk to the life of the Jordanian pilot.
Additionally we heard no reports that the pilot's plane suffered mechanical problems. The Jordanian Defense Ministry has been extremely closed mouth about the circumstances behind the crash too.
Which make me wonder if the guy didn't defect/sympathize/give himself over to ISIS....but lets put aside suspicion and assume its a legit situation and he merits rescuing.
I wonder...don't hate me I'm just being honest. How much harder would SOCOM have pushed if it was one of our own? Not busting sunshine off the 160th's behind (if they did the mission) but they have a reputation for flying through steel rain to get the job done. I have real trouble thinking that small arms fire would turn them around.
Regardless, CENTCOM needs to shed a little light on this one. The lack of information is raising my suspicions. IF a Jordanian pilot defected to ISIS then we have a force protection problem. How many others that are feeding our troops, washing their clothes, performing maintenance at bases they're staying at are also compromised?
NOTE: Personal pat on the back for the timeliness of yesterdays post about the price paid to "leave no man behind". Good job me.
If it had been a American, i think you would of seen a much heavier and more robust action to retrieve this pilot.
ReplyDeletethat being said, using Helo's, rotor noise is just a magnet for gunfire, and lets be serious its not like alot of those are flown by ISIS or really the Iraqi's so i wonder who was coming to play??? Why not jump in and move to the area retrieve and hit a lz out of the area? just a thought
yeah i don't get it. it really seems like SOCOM doesn't use infiltration tactics (at least publicly) as successfully as they did in the past these days. of course the terrain and environment plays a major part..
Deletei'd love more details but since the SEALs didn't perform the mission we probably won't hear anything.
The United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) Parachute Team, called the Para-Commandos, is composed of volunteers from the United States Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines and U.S. government civilians who are assigned to Special Operations Command.--wiki
DeleteThe most recent combat jump I can find was ten years ago in southern Afghanistan, a military free-fall jump on 3 July 2004 by Team 3, Regimental Reconnaissance Detachment, HHC, 75th Ranger Regiment.--Global Security
....But that would be boots on the ground, as compared to a helo rescue.
DeleteAnd in an off topic news- A Pakistani fishing boat (allegedly) was intercepted by the coast guard here off the coast of Porbandar about 90Km's from where I am at. The boat tried to escape and after finally being intercepted.....blew itself up. No bodies recovered yet. Search ongoing. A hijacked Indian Fishing trawler is how they got into Mumbai on that night.
ReplyDeleteUpdate on this story- India's NRTO intercepted phone conversations in Pakistan, passed this information onto the Indian Coast Guard who launched a Do-228 Maritime Patrol Aircraft, once the trawler was identified an ICG vessel on patrol in the area intercepted the said vessel 350 KM from the Indian coast and some 10-15KM inside Indian waters. On being hailed the vessel turned off is lights and attempted to flee, the ICG fired warning shots and sometime after initial contact had been made the vessel ignited seemingly the crew did this themselves.
DeleteWhilst the content of the intercepts has not been made clear and it unclear if this was a suspected smuggling vessel or something more sinister it is rather concerning that the crew took their own lives and didn't simply allow themselves to be arrested as is the norm when the ICG arrests Paksitani smugglers/fishermen.
Let us not forget that 6 years ago Pakistani terorrists had infiltrated from after launching from Pakistan.
A lot of questions remain unanswered but this is certainly something to watch.
Thanks for the update. Something tells me that the Pakistani's are hell bent on an attack here before Obama visits on the 26th of this month. The standard Paki response to any conference and meeting is to blow something up to deliberately derail the main agenda of the meet.
DeleteIf you recall, a couple of months back there was a huge ceasefire violation which our Army confirmed as an attempt by Pakistan to funnel in as many Militants as they could before the winter snow and the Jammu & Kashmir Elections. Many of them were killed (like the Uri camp attack), many remain.
first, what if the jordanian pilot's location was leaked to ambush the rescue force ? that the enemy fire can drove the rescue effort away, the volume of fire must be something to behold..
ReplyDeletei doubt even the nightstalkers can ran thru steel rain without suffering heavy losses, as seen in somalia , iraq and afghanistan.... unless they got flying tanks
and the question remains, how much effort should be expended on recovery/rescue of captured pilot/soldiers ? even the superb IDF cant rescue their kidnapped soldiers..
Couple of shots fired or just bunch of unfriendlies moving in is all it takes for rescue abort specially in situation where you are quite deep behind enemy lines without much air support Allied airstrikes over Syria are sporadic at best. .Gone are the days of Vietnam when CSAR went in at all costs now days you dont even have escort planes that would preform Sandy task at best you have a UAV
DeleteFrom what i can find out no CSAR in last 20 years was hot ,you had number of pilots and SF guys end up in Iraq as POW in Gulf War ..
Many reports indicate that plane went down due to mechanical malfunction .
ReplyDeletewill SOCOM try harder or sacrifice more if the pilot is an american ? im sure they will , but remember somalia, even the delta boys, SEALs and NightStalkers cant rescue mike durant the downed blackhawk pilot.. im sure they tried hard , but the somalis proved to be crafy bunch..
ReplyDeleteBut you can always make a bullshit move like for O'Grady(F16) rescue 5 days later in Bosnia. Similary rubbish was the Richardson (Harrier) story on escape and evasion in reality things were far less full of action .
DeleteWhich make me wonder if the guy didn't defect/sympathize/give himself over to ISIS....
ReplyDeleteA guy's plane goes down in enemy territory, and all you can think to do is besmirch the guys reputation.... I wonder would you also say accuses a western pilot of defecting to ISIS if god forbid one goes down.
I'm always curious about you, often you sound like some Pogue afraid of his own shadow ...
how am i 'besmirching' his reputation by simply stating the obvious. we don't have any information on the particulars of how this guys airplane went down. we don't know if its mechanical trouble, if he was hit by a surface to air missile or what. its an honest question that anyone with sense would ask. the fact that you don't have some defense reporters asking these basic questions gives you insight into either their inexperience or there lack of knowledge. you can be as curious as you like but rest assured i am not afraid of my own shadow.
DeleteCrashing a plane and bailing out over ISIS held territory is kinda hard way to defect as you are likely to get hurt or die in the process and once on the ground your chances of survival are slim you never know which loony on a beheading spree you are going to run into . If he wanted to defect he could simply walk over with a helping hand Turkish officials ,Turkey is thanks to the thieving moron Erdogan rapidly heading towards a dictatorship akin to states in the Gulf with explosive mix of chronies and religius nutjobs at the wheel.
Deletei can't dispute a thing you're saying. but what is curious and should give all pause is the fact that we have no details on what brought this guys plane down. was it mechanical? was it an anti-air missile? if it was a missile why keep it secret, it would be a PR boost to increase public support for action against ISIS. if they can shoot down a military jet then they can certainly down an airliner. support would sky rocket. if it was mechanical issues then thats just an act of God. it happens. no blame. and it would clear up confusion. people like me wouldn't be asking the uncomfortable questions.
Deleteoh and rest assured. if SOCOM doesn't know why the plane went down then you can bet some crusty SF Master Sergeant is sitting in the corner asking the same thing i did. there might be easier ways to do things but you can't plan for crazy. besides. who would think that a US soldier would actually leave his unit and go for strolls around the countryside of a nation where you're doing combat ops? my point is that asking questions doesn't convict the guy. but it does make a difference (at least to me) how strenuous an effort you make to recover him. if you have two guys. one was captured by the enemy and the other simply walked over to the other side which would you be willing to break the rule and pay a ransom for? the Soldier or Marine that kept the faith, did his job and got snatched or the villain that simply walked over to the bad guys and said here i am.
If it was a missile then the US would have to admit that ISIS are able to shoot down their aircraft, which would probably have the American people questioning why their airmen are being put at risk when they could just sit back and do nothing. It would also be embarrassing to admit that a group like ISIS can shoot down an American made and fairly modern jet fighter, wouldn't do much for their future exports either. Plus having Jordan and America admit that the jet was downed by them would be a propaganda coup for ISIS, Why let them take the credit?
DeleteIt could have been a technical problem, jet fighters have a stupidly high attrition rate, but I severely doubt that a Jordanian pilot would have defected like that, or indeed that a Jordanian pilot would defect at all. If he was wanting to defect I'd have expected him to land at an ISIS held airstrip so they can use the jet again or at least to lessen the risks of ejecting.
Just my thoughts,
well that brings up the other side of this coin. ISIS isn't claiming to have shot down the airplane. they aren't walking around with a used SA-7 saying this is the weapon that did the deed. they've been mum. additionally we haven't been seeing the usual propaganda pics of the pilot in an orange jump suit. the only pics we've seen of him were when they fished him out of the lake or whatever.
Deleteand thats my point. if it wasn't mechanical problems and if the plane wasn't shot down then what the hell did happen? no one is saying anything and that makes me suspicious as hell.
the pilot might be a genuine hero. but lets be honest. the info trail on this incident is shady at best. all i'm saying is that there MUST be more to this than meets the eye.
I'm not so sure that the lack of propaganda pictures means that much, I don't know if you've heard of Bellingcat but from some fairly anonymous desert pictures he managed to locate where the last few people were killed. Assuming that US and Jordanian intelligence is better than him and have better resources I'm guessing that propaganda pictures would risk giving his location away.
DeleteThe possibilities are pretty endless but we know that the people who know aren't talking. It's possible that he died shortly after he was captured and they are pretending that he is alive to lead rescuers into an ambush.
You may be right but there's nothing to indicate that al-Kasasbeh has defected. I've got no idea what actually happened with everyone staying silent about it but to me the defection of a pilot like him would be almost unthinkable.
US denied ISIS shotdown the plane... i remember a story about C130 gunship operating over Steel Tiger (Ho Chin minh trail) , one got shot at by SAM and luckily avoided it somehow, back at debriefing the intel guys were adamant there's no SA2 in laos.. even when the rear scanner (a guy hanging out the tail ramp to look for AAA threat) definitely saw the signature of SA2 launch and the famous telephone pole itself..
ReplyDeletenot long after the indicent, another AC130 got blasted out of the sky by SA2 and killed everyone..
i understand the US gov trying to belittle ISIS anti aircraft capability , it is fine and dandy to bomb ISIS from safe altitude and all, but is it foolish to assume that ISIS will never have high altitude SAM in the future ?
I saw another article where it said V22s were used, isn't kind of strange that the last couple of raids that have failed, V22s were involved? Sure seems to me that the good guys are having a real hard time sneaking up on the bad guys when the V22 is around...just saying.
ReplyDeleteWhy aren't we using the StealhHawk that was used on OBL raid?
not having any info on the raid it could be they needed the speed. thats the only thing the V-22 has over the MH-47G's that the 160th uses. the range thing is almost a wash. what makes me wonder is if USAF special ops isn't looking for a win while flying the plane.
Deletei don't know how strong the V-22 mafia is but i would almost bet that some in the special ops community are pushing for it real hard and want to see it bought in bigger numbers.
I'm guessing Turkey is still out of this?
ReplyDeleteBecause Al Raqqa-
http://www.understandingwar.org/sites/default/files/SyriaUpdate_3-15-13_map.png
Is about as far as you can get from Damascus, The Mediterranean, Iraq, Jordan and Saudi and still be in Syria but it looks like maybe only 100nm from the Turkish border.
I'd also like to know if they came at night.
If they were truly using MH-47G from Turkey (short radius), then they should have had the option of putting 2-3 JD Gators-
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--236M_xgT--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/666637305302290466.jpg
Inside each Hook and maybe another underneath which would have given them the MOBILITY to push into, not just one but potentially 2-3 possible locations to get their man (my bet: He's in Iran already, just like the two Israeli Soldiers).
This solves the problem of rotor flap coming into the outskirts and then /slowing down/ the MOUT advance in the critical phases of the assault, exactly where you want to be speeding things up.
Obviously, you can still get into trouble with the non existent armor on these vehicles but it greatly eases the time domain constraint on getting a sizeable objective force onto the target sight (10-12 men = 3 vehicles, driver and shotgun stay with the mounts) while letting you form an extended base of fire with dismounts who can act as a bridge back to the LZ (with it's own security screen) if need be.
Everyone knows I am an advocate of mounted Special Forces _under armor_ with high capability light tanks and this is exactly the kind of scenario I am talking about.
You look at an MQ-9 and you have the potential of 8 AGM-114 shots.
You look at an F-16 and you have the potential of 4 GBU-12/38 shots.
You look at an M8 Buford and suddenly you have 30 rounds of 105mm, though you have to risk a C-130 to put it down, fully armed.
Or, you can take two Mk.1 Wiesel /inside/ a CH-53 with equal or better protection to the basic armored Humvee (7.62API and Splinters) and 160 rounds of 20mm. Or seven TOW missiles. Or 20, 120mm mortar rounds (auto breechloaded on the Dragonfire).
Walking it in is fine for a sneak raid out in the boondocks of AfG where your worst enemy is the damn dogs but it doesn't work in a city where ISIS is running teams of people around like a hybrid Air Raid Warden and Chaperones to the Prom From Hell-
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ReplyDeleteThe "Hisbih Brigade" imposes rules for men, the "Khansa Brigade" for women. Members of both "roam around 24 hours a day … terrorizing, scaring, forcing" residents, Abu Saif said. "Their principle is that you are either with them or against them," he added.
...
However, Abu Saif conceded that ISIS deserved credit for what they'd accomplished.
"With the departments they have established, they really have created a state," he said. "One cannot deny that, for instance, they opened a consumer protection office. If one has a restaurant and they came to check it out, and the meat was bad, or it was exposed to dirt or sunlight, they would take expired material and dispose of it as a sanitary action. They follow up on these issues completely with the departments they have created.”
Abu Saif said ISIS "imprisoned one of their own because they found out that he took something from someone and then sold it."
>
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/what-life-inside-isis-capital-city-raqqa-syria-n211206
These people are organized, they likely have OPs out watching their own people, never mind waiting for you and if so, they will have a comms schedule and checkin. Even if you jam it, you may not get ingressed clean.
And if you mess up, if you treat them like mooks, they will hand you your head.
Something to further keep in mind when you realize WE DO NOT LOOK LIKE THESE PEOPLE. We don't speak their language and their customs are so strict that we cannot just throw on a thawb and pretend we belong.
During operations in Iraq, it was discovered that the locals /sometimes/ have a hard time discerning Hispanics from their own. But all our Spanish boys are hip deep and sinking in Central and South America.
Which leaves back to the hard kinetics options from a distant insert, mounted ingress and minimal infiltration tactics.
How can we do this better?
Well, keeping mind that it gets so hot in that part of the world that whole families sometimes sleep on their roofs; the Israelis have developed a small ducted fan UAV that can set down UGS sensors on rooftops. They employed it during the second Intifada to keep track of the various terrorists. With a tilting ducted rotor and a coffee can sensor carrier underneath, it looks something like this-
ISTAR UAV
http://defense-update.com/20050128_istar-uav.html#.VKckQE05CM8
If that sensor was in fact a combination structural jack (auditory mike that used building compression creep charges to power it's conduction unit) and Black Hornet dispenser and cellphone relay-
PD-100
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o7mRg74qcY
We could at least confirm that the occupants inside a building were or were not talking about or to a hostage before commiting specops to the mission.
If we wanted to think AREA OF EFFECT we could get serious about 'stun rays' using HPM systems to build an electrical discharge arc on the body which we then depolarized at a frequency that induced a nociceptor response.
If that is still a ways out, why not some form of nano-UAV that can plunge into a target and deliver a anaesthetic/paralytic? These could be dropped /in the hundreds/ from a fixed dispenser on a Shadow or Outrider type UAV and saturate a ten block radius with nothing more than a radiosonde "I am here, choose another target at least six feet away." proximity alert system to ensure target sort.
Toxic Dart Chemical Warfare a little too likely to come back at you the wrong way? How about an Alpha Wave generator? Acoustic. Intended to deepen the already deep sleep rhythms of 0D30 in single structures by means of ultrasound propagation along halls.
Or how about a Dazzler?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcOZvKRpy4Y
If you mount that system on a Swallow UAV, in partnership with a sniper finder system like Viper (thermal and acoustic) you now have a both a target marker and a suppression function without worrying about localizing the sniper or shooting over civilians across 200-500-800m of intervening space.
Not because we love ISIS but because we want to avoid fighting through half of Syria to reach our objective and get out, we could be doing SO MUCH more to push that hardpower as force protection (armor and speed of onset) while simultaneously minimizing the requirement for combatant exchange of fires which is where you get your mazcat collaterals (you shoot and miss, I shoot back and miss, but what about the people behind us?) .
Or how about a Dazzler?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcOZvKRpy4Y
If you mount that system on a Swallow UAV, in partnership with a sniper finder system like Viper (thermal and acoustic) you now have a both a target marker and a suppression function without worrying about localizing the sniper or shooting over civilians across 200-500-800m of intervening space.
Not because we love ISIS but because we want to avoid fighting through half of Syria to reach our objective and get out, we could be doing SO MUCH more to push that hardpower as force protection (armor and speed of onset) while simultaneously minimizing the requirement for combatant exchange of fires which is where you get your mazcat collaterals (you shoot and miss, I shoot back and miss, but what about the people behind us?) .
Or how about a Dazzler?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcOZvKRpy4Y
If you mount that system on a Swallow UAV, in partnership with a sniper finder system like Viper (thermal and acoustic) you now have a both a target marker and a suppression function without worrying about localizing the sniper or shooting over civilians across 200-500-800m of intervening space.
Not because we love ISIS but because we want to avoid fighting through half of Syria to reach our objective and get out, we could be doing SO MUCH more to push that hardpower as force protection (armor and speed of onset) while simultaneously minimizing the requirement for combatant exchange of fires which is where you get your mazcat collaterals (you shoot and miss, I shoot back and miss, but what about the people behind us?) .
Or how about a Dazzler?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcOZvKRpy4Y
If you mount that system on a Swallow UAV, in partnership with a sniper finder system like Viper (thermal and acoustic) you now have a both a target marker and a suppression function without worrying about localizing the sniper or shooting over civilians across 200-500-800m of intervening space.
Not because we love ISIS but because we want to avoid fighting through half of Syria to reach our objective and get out, we could be doing SO MUCH more to push that hardpower as force protection (armor and speed of onset) while simultaneously minimizing the requirement for combatant exchange of fires which is where you get your mazcat collaterals (you shoot and miss, I shoot back and miss, but what about the people behind us?) .
What about a Wiesel 2 with a hybrid or all electric drive and rubber band tracks. Should be fast, quiet and able to carry some firepower.
ReplyDeleteWiesel 2 operates with an 1.9 liter turbocharged VW Diesel engine. A damper should be sufficient.
DeleteWaPo:
ReplyDeletePentagon denies attempted Special Operations raid in Syria
U.S. military officials on Friday denied reports that the U.S.-led military coalition overseeing operations in Iraq and Syria launched a Special Operations raid in the Islamic State’s stronghold, following a burst of claims from activists in the region.
--Remove back-pat. :-)
remove my backpat? not bloody likely!!!! if a raid was launched, if it wasn't successful, if they did have electronic support to keep operatives from being photographed by cell phones and if no casualties occurred so no family has to be notified then this is how Special Ops should function. deny everything...even success....announce only things that are essential to mission accomplishment...and like the old Army General said...stay out of the media!
DeleteNo disrespect, Sol -- but there would seem to be zero (zip) evidence thus far to suggest the pilot was defecting to ISIS. That would seem to be a ridiculous hypothesis or conspiracy, etc. Perhaps it was pilot mistake in flying too low vs manpads, or not being armed properly, when facing likely manpad counter-fire, etc. Perhaps it was indeed mechanical-related issue or other related issue (collision, etc ?), which forced pilot to eject.
ReplyDeleteThere's probably good reason why more info on the cause of crashed jet is not released in public. Just as you seem to propose and advocate for Spec Ops not to release info in public on their operations, even if successful, etc?
you're twisting the argument. Special Ops should be quiet about their missions. releasing information on why an airplane went down is would in no way compromise their mission. a mechanical issue would bring discredit to no one. it happens all the time. if it was anti-aircraft fire we would have heard ISIS chirping away about it. but we haven't. that's what led me to speculation regarding a defection. once you remove all the probable you then have to start looking at what some may see as improbable. that led me to the defection angle.
DeleteI guess I was just counter-interpolating that if ISIS had a defected pilot joining their ranks and not a downed pilot after-all, they would have been chirping about it too? But very probably, there could in fact be various relevant operational (and perhaps even political) reasons why the coalition and in particular Jordan flying their F-16s, could indeed desire to keep all chatter to a minimum? Just my viewpoint at least...
Deleteonce again you're twisting the argument. first you stated that it was ridiculous for me to speculate on his defecting and now you're saying that because ISIS isn't claiming that the pilot defected that means that he didn't. its hard to hit a moving target especially when its a debate. what is the issue with the Jordanians flying F-16's? its a fighter plane. nothing more or less. its mechanical. it breaks. as much as some would like that to indicate a failure of US tech its anything but.
Deletemy point remains. we don't have info on why this plane went down and that is different than what we've seen in the past. an F-16 shot down in Kosovo we heard about it. a F-15 suffer mechanical trouble in Libya we hear about it. a spat of helicopters shot down by RPGs we heard it late, but we heard about it. but on this, in an age of increased social media, people talking too much and military forces world wide practically raising their skirts at the slightest breeze and nothing? the whole thing reeks. maybe he didn't defect but something is goofy here.