Sorry folks.
I can't get too excited about this. Except for the motivation this is simply a mass shooting and several layers of protection broke down. Activating the entire Gendarme to deal with these guys? Probably not needed. They attacked and then fled the scene. Nothing heard from them in the hours since.
We'll see but I just don't know. What do you think?
NOTE: STOP CALLING THESE GUYS PROFESSIONALS!!!! They exhibited basic weapons handling skill against a soft target, ambushed police officers that displayed poor tactics and shot up an office building filled with (this is not to ridicule the dead just calling a spade a spade) sheep. I could personally teach any clown off the street the same abilities (and lets be honest so could many of my readers) exhibited by these shooters in 5 days. If the same person was motivated to commit evil they could do the same act with just that small bit of training. So to repeat. Basic weapons handling skills DO NOT make a person a professional.
Politically the big winner will be Marine Le Pen who is head of the National Front. It is a very odd party. Imagine the stop immigration sense and nationalism of the tea party with an economic policy vastly to the left of anything in the US. She wants to pull out of the euro, reissue the franc, and nationalize all heavy industries. It is a plan for national suicide.
ReplyDeleteFrance (and the rest of Europe) is suiciding already. The pendulum has to swing back towards nationalism at some point.
DeleteFrance has the largest Muslim population in Europe, mostly due to having former colonies such as Algeria and Libya. An event like like this will create more sentiment towards nationalization. At least anti-"those guys" type nationalism.
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DeleteLibya never was our colony but we had almost all the north africa...
DeleteI think that we don't really know anything about this act yet. Looking at the videos, the two gunmen seemed to be professionals, not angry amateurs.
ReplyDeleteYea, France has lots of jihadists returning from Syria, don't they? Of course they are professionals, they have been at it for the past three years.
DeleteGood Point. The arming one set of barbarians to fight another isn't such a great innovation in warfare, eh?
DeleteAgree with assessment were not dealing with professionals ... The media should STFU calling them
ReplyDeleteMilitarily trained pros ... One guy is loosing his shoe when he steps out of his car that says it all...
On the other hand never underestimate the stupidity and death wish of people who evidently see themselves of soldiers in a global war ... Their outfit and weaponry is telling ... They see themselves as some kind of jihadi elite unit and they won't back away from a fight and will try to take as many lives as they possibly can.
The other thing is that contrary to the average mass shooting this is a ideologically motivated act. And the fact they claim to be al Qaeda and not Isis is very interesting if proven to be true.
My guess is we will see this thing escalate into a bloody ending within 48 hours.
Question then will be how many others are going to follow ... Don't forget there have been isolated attacks in France over the holidays and this might spread into other European countries within the next months as has been warned about by security experts, because of returning would be jihadis from Syria.
So from a political and security point of view its a very interesting development and a step up to previous attacks .. We'll see when we know who the terrorists were !
They are not professionals(as the dude at cnn said) they probably are two dude trained at a random jihad camp around the world.
ReplyDeleteAnd I agree with hecate when he said that this might spread around Europe.
About terror attacks, I don't know if I said it here, or anyone else sais, but... They will keep doing this type of shit until someone gets really pissed and strike back with nuclear force or worse.
Agree completely. They may have learned some basic weapon skills from Syria, but calling them professional legitimizes them and helps with their information operation campaign. Don't help the enemy. Call them thugs,
ReplyDeleteCould we not make this into a racial thing and stick to operational tactical side of things. As this whole thread might go sideways if it turns into a lecture about decline of western civilization.
ReplyDeleteIslam is not a race, it's a ideology, a way of life. Western civilization (as we know it now) and devout Muslims are incompatible.
DeleteWhatever dude, there's a certain merit to what you're saying, but my comment was in response to another post that was mixing everything into a highly volatile and morronic mixture.
DeleteBesides, in certain countries, when you talk about "the muslims" it is a racial thing, everybody in those countries knows it, maybe you didn't.
People in France can't handle AKs. These Guns are very hard to get in Western Europe and the only people who get training on AKs in western Europe are special forces military. These guys fought in some kind of war. I bet it was in Syria.
ReplyDeleteyou don't know that. they could have simply gone to some air soft camp and got training from some former soldier or Marine on how they should do it "realistically". my point is this. weapons handling is not some secret skill that is limited to only a few. many guys have it, many maintain those skills and unless you come off as a jerk, terrorist wannabe or idiot they'll pass that info along.
Deletehell, you could watch youtube and get the general ideas! nothing about their performance today indicated professionalism. determination yes. the desire to inflict death upon people they viewed as the enemy yes. but professionalism? didn't see it.
This may sound tin foil hat kinda thing. But... These dudes might be learning from the deep Web or something like that.
DeleteOn YouTube we may learn how to make a pipe gun, black powder and things like that and are talking about surface Web, that's makes me wonder what tipe of things a motivated jihadist may learn if he got a little bit deeper than that.
@ Savage: I think it would be wiser to stick to stuff you know for a fact rather than stating hypotheticals or false counterfacutals. So to put the record straight:
Delete1. it's fairly "easy" to get AK-47s in France in some areas, like poor suburbs of Paris or Marseilles. AKs have been provided to the local illegal arms market since the mid-1980s (first from Lebanon together with a whole batch of RPG9s used in a series of robberies), then from the Balkans (starting with early 1990s) and now the market is flooded with counterband from Libya, ever since 2012. So you're wrong on your first point.
2. It is knwown fact that djihadi groups have had training camps in woodland and forest areas in North-Eastern France and in Belgium under false pretense of having "air soft weekend trips" there, while in fact they were providing a bunch of would be warriors with some rudimentary weapons handling skills. So you're wrong on your second point too.
3. They may or may not have fought in a war. If they did, it's likely to have been Syria you're right, but it's not established at this point yet.
Again, these are basically jokers armed with military grade weapons and willing to kill anybody who gets in their way. Might be over by tomorrow morning when their hideout is stormed ... who knows
@Andre: yeah, well, no need to get to the deep Web to learn the "non skills" they have displayed so far ... They shot a cop who was a member of the Paris bycicle patrol, used to handling parking tickets and traffic problems usually ...
DeleteHecate, that makes me wonder about something Solomon said(I guess)
DeleteNow imagine a real professional, or a bunch of professional doing the same thing.
Sure, think the people in the Mumbay attack displayed better awareness and skill than anything i've seen since. But the thing is, they don't need true professionals to come out into the open guns blasting, that would be a real waste for them ... they got enough dispensable "footsoldiers" with a death wish to do their bidding and that is even harder to prevent, as almost anybody with two arms and legs could potentially get involved into something like this ... they gonna end up dead soon anyway, no mystery to how this is gonna finish
Deleteyou want to know when you're dealing with pros? when they have the ability to do simple stuff like knock out surveillance cameras (all you need is a lazer pointer)...when we see security guards neutralized with little effort. when the attacked target has people not only killed but the building destroyed or set on fire causing an increased emergency response, and finally if they're able to launch attacks at multiple locations at the same time in a major metropolitan area. until then i'm convinced that all we're seeing are highly motivated amateurs with a degree of "learning".
Deleteoh and Mumbai is the last armed attack that i've seen that rises to the level of professionalism.
Delete@Hercate Thanks for your input, but I partly disagree.
Delete1. An AK is an unusual weapon for France. There is no way to buy them legally, they were not produced in France or the EU Schengen area around, they were not carried by any police or military force in France. So there is only one way to get AKs. They have to be smuggeled into the country. It might be possible to get one or another old one from the black market but don't forget: They had two which looked fairly similar. This looks for me like some kind of terrorist network.
2. There is a difference between airsoft training and killing people in the street. This guy who shoot the policeman didn't kill for the first time.
3. They certainly also could have fought in Libya, Libanon or Irak but in Syria are and were large numbers of foreign fighters form all over Europe so that's by far the most probable option. Here is a link to an article about how Germany identified exactly that problem and how they try to cope with that.
http://world.news-round.com/danger-of-terrorism-germany-is-afraid-the-return-of-the-is-fighters/
You should watch some videos of IS fights in Syria. Compared to that these guys look more professional that the average IS fighter. They are certainly no special forces material but they are trained fighters with war experience.
Sorry for my English but I'm not a native speaker. (I'm German)
@Savage
DeleteI don't know but do you realize the armament and weaponry that has the italian mafia? They used from IEDs to RPG to kill judges and witnesses, you must be joking if you believe that is hard to get a AK-47 in criminal zones, not only traveling abroad but just in places with your local mafia like Corsica or Marseille.
Balcans happened just 20 years ago, a huge amout on arms ended in black markets it europe.
If i remember correctly from an article buying an AK-47 on the black market costed around 500 euros.
Right now i'm wondering if police forces in Germany and Italy can use their baggage of experience earned during the red/black terrorist period
Agree with Savage that 'professional' or not (a subjective determination), that guy executing the cop had killed before.
Deleteyou can't tell that! because he shot him without hesitation could simply mean that the guy is sadistic as all get out!
DeleteIt is not totally uncommon for an illegal AK to be sourced from the balkans actually. I would have to make an educated guess and say it was a Yugo AK.
DeleteIm curious about the "rocket launcher" part. Maybe it was an initial reporting error.
unconfirmed, ie not officially confirmed, but no reason anymore not to say this: the buildings where the gunmen are hiding are likely to be stormed tonight, or maybe in the early morning hours (CET). French SWAT have surrounded neighborhoods in two cities north and north east of Paris. Might be worth having a look at your favourite news channel later on...
ReplyDeleteJust confirmed Three suspects aged 18, 32 and 33 - two brothers saïd kouachi and Cherif kouachi and a younger guy, hamid mourad. The two brothers were involved in djihadi networks and have recently returned from Syria. The younger is not known for any foreign djihad experience.
ReplyDeleteLooks like I was right.
ReplyDeleteCongratulations you must be very proud ...
DeleteWhat's more professionnal in this hit than in many other is the amount of research done on the target. It seems that beside knowing the names of the main journalists and cartoonists of the journal and being able to identify them, the terrorist also knew when to strike for maximal effect, chosing to attack at the exact time the full team was assembled for it's weekly meeting.
ReplyDeleteIt is thus probably a more complex operation than the Brussels attack on the Jewish museum, the drive by shooting in southern France a few months ago or the recent fools driving cars into Christmas markets.
yeah, roger that. when the info changes so should assessments. this is more professional and has the hallmark of training. but i stand by the statement that simply showing a bit of weapons handling skill does not necessarily denote a professional. with this information i have to alter my opinion. with the limited info we had earlier, i was right in my assessment.
DeleteMany questions remain open .... Judging by their MO it's been known since this morning that this wasn't an improvised attack and that they had been preparing it for a while. They knew where the conference room was and when the editors and journalists would be there sure.
DeleteWhat you may not know is that they got the address of the building wrong and asked ther mailman for the right building. Then they didnt have the code to open the door and had to wait a while for a lady to get in which might have blown their timing. So you already see conflicting clues about organization and amateur action.
They are armed with a shotgun and a AK but one guy looses a sneaker as he gets out of the car to confront the police.
Two of the three suspects have been in Syria but we do not know yet how much and what training they're got there. Everybody is talking about weapons training but their skills are very rudimentary. What nobody realizes is that training is Syria is focused just as much on Islamic indoctrination and clandestine skills ... Evading surveillance, blending back into the general population staying under the radar never using IT devices and learning to communicate with their handlers through other ways.
The two older suspects are known for their involvement in logistics networks not operational fighting. And the younger guy never fought in the Middle East.
Finally one of the most important aspect of this operation is the organization they claim to be member of, which is AQAP for those who know it: al Qaeda in Arab peninsula aka al Qaeda in Yemen. This is an interesting point as they didn't pick a more prominent target and didn't shoot indiscriminately : they went for the chief editor journalists and cartoonists of a newspaper whose director has been on al qaedas kill list for a while (his name was published on the most wanted list in al qaedas "Inspire" magazine). That would mean no direct correlation with ISIS and Syria but a longstanding fatwa from al Zawahiri who might want to give Al Qaeda central some relevance again in its PR war with ISIS.
Forgot to add, as mentioned earlier, SWAT is about to launch raid/assault in city north east of Paris
Deletei don't know if they want to go in there halfway. we could see a massive fire fight depending on how many terrorist/sympathizers are in the area. pass the popcorn.
DeleteI'm on standby tonight so guess I'll be waiting for things to happen ... Been with friends on the phone ... French swat is targeting three separate locations which makes things more difficult ... But they got 180 SWAT officers on the spot so numbers shouldn't be an issue.
DeleteAnother raid is under way in a smaller city further up north on border to Belgium. I don't know why though. Maybe family members of youngest attacker living there.
One thing is sure, the SWAT is not gonna go in half assed like in Sydney, besides there are no known hostages on the spot so they might go in full force.
Wouldn't be surprised if they tried something different with this assault like using some high power CS gas before putting their own body on the line ... I've heard they have been practicing this type of assault recently. Pass the popcorn back.
Just heard 1 dead 2 in custody. From the details I have read here they did research on their target or were given the research, but getting the address wrong seems they didn't do the surveillance themselves. Now the length of the attack is what I am looking at. 5 min and out. In this country that would be equivalent to someone pulling their head out of their butt from shear fear calling 911 and an operator trying to figure out what someone is saying get them calm and get rough details to officers. By the time officers start heading that direction they were leaving.
ReplyDeleteI haven't seen the full video, but why in the hell did the police there lay down and die?
yeah thats why i don't get mad about bang bang issues with police. the French police officer died without a struggle because he expected mercy from savages. but wait Sol you got upset at the Garner incident and the deal in Ferguson. you're right. but think about the circumstances. in the New York, i saw what looks like sloppy technique to enforce a minor law. in Ferguson i saw what looks like a shooting where there was no clear danger.
Deletebut did you notice that i wasn't upset over the shooting in Ohio? officers were called they see a gun couldn't know that it was fake. same with the shooting in the mall of a guy waving around a toy gun.
but back to this incident.
i hate the look of that. it so reminds me of soldiers that surrendered instead of fighting till the end and then being decapitated. it smacks of weakness that is intolerable.
Who's dead and who's in custody ?
DeleteSol - I get your point and its a harsh reality for some - however I will identify this important point -
Deletethe police shot were 'general law enforcement' not trained anti terrorist police/military. It is a high expectation to have 'beat cops' ready for this type reasonably well armed type of incident (Some EU countries are not as prepared or in state of readiness like the US). i.e. French beat cops are not armed...
If they are to be (and they need to be with the benefit of hind site) then their training and equipment level needs to change -
by the way France have had several attacks over the years...(so WTF is going on, the poor buggers (police) are still unarmed!).
This brings about a range of other issues. i.e. the perceived/real militarization of the police (to a high degree in in the US). it also potentially brings a different character to the general law enforcement task.... a much harsher character and one far less rational and less appealing to general pubic for basic law enforcement....anyway its just an observation. I am sorry for the people/families who lost their lives. Police with a basic side arms and training would have significantly changed the outcome of this situation.
i'm not buying it and heres why. we expect Marines and Soldiers to be friendly and nation build or hand out disaster relief supplies. then walk around the corner and skull fuck the enemy without hesitation or remorse, then go back home to their families with a week or two off and then train to do it all again...only next time better.
Deleteif we can train an 18 year old to be able to switch on and off then why can't police be expected to do the same. also the militarization is indeed a fact. mayberry USA doesn't need an MRAP or an on call SWAT team. big cities and the state police do.
Yep, its an observation - I get your point (and agree .
DeleteI know France/EU reasonably well - the front/base line police are not ready for this under their current statue of employment, not to mention poorly equipped. It's now a major political issue ....finally (and firstly the peoples issue). They are police, not Marines/soldiers - they are different beasts in many peoples minds and mine to some degree (or at least have different roles, particularly in this region as they are not use to having armed perpetrators - I just wanted to make that observation). If they want soldiers on the corner - then they have to get that. None the less. pants down, bent over a bar stool, France just got $%#!ed over. Its a harsh reality when this happens. Again - basic side arm and training would have helped.
but in the case of most European countries they have a middle ground. the French in particular with their Gendarme force. they're quasi military with a police function. they have armored vehicles (real deal that you can use on the battlefield), they're dressed differently and they are formed like Army brigades. they're also quite numerous. why they wouldn't have that type of unit guarding a high value target like this cartoon shop is beyond me but its obvious that someone somewhere totally misread the threat and placed cops that weren't equipped to deal with this situation in harms way.
Deleteno one will point to French leadership but they played a role in this tragedy. they went soft when it came to protection and the French people got fucked hard because of it.
.Can't believe the amount of BS I'm seeing on CNN with experts talking about professionals with extensive training and Ex-CIA saying that email and phone analysis should allow for identifying their whereabouts ... I mean WTF ?!
ReplyDeleteAnyway raid is over for now in Reims and no shots fired during assault of first target locations. Don't have the patience for anymore crap so bedtime for me. You can keep the popcorn !
yeah. this thing is over and the only reason the news media is going crazy is because journalist were the targets. i'm done
Deletei wonder who is putting up thr planning and the logistic of this operation ? i mean the brain.. I doubt this is just a random angry people getting together to kill people responsilbe for drawing cartoons..
ReplyDeletethe shooters , where can you get AK in france ? and where they train to shoot ? how long before we heard about ISIS connection ?
the label "professional" seem rather out of place here.. how can mainstream media label terrorist as "professional" ? did these terrorist do this for money ? thats whats professional do right ? a bunch of hired / paid killers , is that what they implied by calling them pro ?
imagine if the brain behind these acts have better funding and resource to mount multiple attacks using more men.. it will be another mumbai level of disaster in france..
as an afterthought, anyone remember Breivik incident ? acting alone setting up bombs and shooting kids and survided the ordeal.. he is not professional either..
ReplyDeletehttp://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/heartbreaking-cartoons-from-artists-in-response-to-the-ch?s=mobile
ReplyDeletesame here in bumfuck Louisiana! i wonder how big a part that plays in the lack of these type attacks in the heartland of the US? we've seen attacks in major cities but nothing in rural places. you would think that it would be an easier target if you weren't aware of the culture.
ReplyDeleteon one part of the world we saw heavily militaristic police in america against unarmed civilians, and on other side of the world you have unarmed police vs heavily armed terrorist..
ReplyDeleteterrorist handbook 101 told them to attack the weakest least defended target..
how long will this incident inspire other extremist into this kind of act all over western world ?
Hyerbole of the Day
ReplyDelete'“They were very professional, very organised. It was well-timed. You can’t pull off something like this without military training,” said former US army lieutenant-colonel Tony Shaffer, who was CIA-trained and worked as an intelligence officer with special forces in Afghanistan.'
for a guy with some sort of credibility and training, he betrayed his ultimate influence.....that fat check he collected from CNN for stating some bloviated bullshit. Every expert on TV is just some shithead collecting a paycheck.
spot on . these guys try and look slick and knowledgeable but they're idiots.
Deletethat's just it, they aren't idiots. They are pricks who know better and could actually impart knowledge on the viewers, but decide to help CNN sell ad time so their paychecks keep getting deposited.
DeleteWas that shaffer who said that ?! Think that's when I turned off the TV ... Fuck now you got one more piece in the puzzle of how we fucked up in AFPAKland ! With experts like that soon we won't even need an enemy no more ...Well just bomb shit and then FUBAR the place .. Oh but wait that's already the new "no boots" on the ground strategy isn't it!?
DeleteBack to sleep for an hour ...
this is not going well for people of islamic religion in france and in other western world.. it is always the ordinary people who have to bear the burden of blame for the sins of extrimist and fanatics..
ReplyDeletehow do you even differentiate 'moslem' with 'fundamentalist moslem' ??? every serious religious practicioner no matter what their religion will always be fundamental in their own right.. are there 'casual' muslim practicioner ?
i loath these armed attacks using religion / belief , because the fallout will go to the innocents.. speaking from my point of view as non-moslem living in muslim majority country, all muslim i know condemned ISIS and terrorist who use moslem as excuse for their violence, these moslem called them the "takfiris", a term describing misguided and false doctrine who legalized everyting to reach their goal..
hard as it maybe for people in the west , it is crucial not to let this incident become te rallying cry against moslem people... do not let the anger of the west be turned on muslims..
And Front National's Marine Le Pen comes out swinging...
*LE PEN SAYS FRANCE HADN'T SEEN SUCH BARBARIC ACT IN DECADES
*LE PEN SAYS WANTS TO DEFEND FRANCE AGAINST WAR WAGED ON COUNTRY
*LE PEN: IT'S MY RESPONSIBILITY TO SAY FEAR MUST BE OVERCOME
*LE PEN:ATTACK MUST FREE OUR SPEECH AGAINST ISLAM FUNDAMENTALISM
*LE PEN: IT'S A TERORRIST ATTACK IN NAME OF RADICAL ISLAM
*LE PEN SAYS TIME OF DENIAL, HYPOCRISY NO LONGER POSSIBLE
*LE PEN: REJECTION OF FUNDAMENTAL ISLAM MUST BE PROCLAIMED
Were they unarmed?
ReplyDeleteThat would be ridiculous, considering that when I vacationed to Marseilles and Lyon last year, there were armed police officers common place (carrying smith revolvers, and not 38s either).
Yes they're armed. where did you get idea they unarmed ? In the UK, beat cops don't carry handguns, in France they do. It's only local cops, normally tasked with writing parking tickets who are unarmed.
ReplyDeleteService weapon is the 9 mm SIG Sauer SP 2022 (260 000 units issued to PDs nationwide). Equipment is good in French police and gendarmerie forces, but the regular coppers aren't trained for anything like yesterday's attack.
Ah that makes sense. The MSM made a generalization of "unarmed police responding to shooting", and that is why I asked, because the police I've seen in France were certainly armed.
ReplyDeleteThe latest ally in the war on terror: the notorious hacker group Anonymous!
ReplyDeletehttp://youviewed.com/2015/01/10/anonymous-launches-opcharliehebdo-declares-war-on-jihadist-websites/
As I mentioned on another thread, the Jihadis have now pissed off the Left as well as the political right. Bad career move. When you have Bill O'Reilly and Anonymous both talking war against ISIS then you are facing a conciliated front against terror