NOTE: This is a follow up to a post earlier "What target got hit to turn night into day in Donesk"
Check out the crater left from the explosion. According to my Russian speakers the hole is 10 meters deep by 50 meters in diameter! I guess a MOAB would cause even greater damage but maybe a Russian Daisy Cutter...just weaker than our own...maybe optimized for urban settings.
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ReplyDeleteSol, it is not a surprise that the Russian has a daisy cutter, pretty low tech, but issued the order to drop it. Who in the US chain of command would issue the order to drop one on Raqqa?
ReplyDeletewell i'm just saying that the crater created and the video of the explosion makes me think a Daisy Cutter. i could easily be wrong. as far as who would issue the order to drop...i would say probably Valerie Jared...assuming it passed the sample polling they do in this White House before every major decision.
DeleteOuch! True, but ouch!
DeleteDaisy Cutters and MOABs expload above ground so they would not create this kind of crater.
ReplyDeleteIt looks like a penetrating weapon that may have hit an ammo or fuel dump.
On the Russian "Daisy Cutter", here it is:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481310/Russia-tests-worlds-largest-non-nuclear-bomb.html
Just like the US version, it does not penetrate and would not cause this kind of crater.
you're assuming that it would be used as we've used ours historically. to clear jungle. remember in Afghanistan it was used to shock, awe and kill the enemy. additionally you're assuming that a fuze extender is always used. not necessarily. if this was a demonstration of power then a crater would be necessary part of it for discussions just like this.
DeleteDaisy Cutter, MOAB, and FOAB are "Fuel Air" explosives detonate above ground which allows a vast majority of their mass to be explosive. As a consequence, if something failed in the fuse or drag chute, then the bomb would smear on the ground on impact since their case is very thin.
DeleteIn either case, a MOAB/FOAB style weapon would never create the deep & narrow impact channel seen in the video.
a Daisy Cutter IS NOT a FAE. it closer to a fertilizer bomb than a FAE. and fertilizer bombs can cause craters if detonated at surface level.
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DeleteSorry, I meant "FOAB is a ", not "are a ".
DeleteMy point is still valid, they are not penetrating weapons and would smear on impact.
Yes, they can create a crater, but it will be a wide and shallow one, not narrow and deep.
It was a penetrating bomb (GP or other hardened case required).
no they would not "smear" on contact with the ground if properly fused. they would explode! no one is talking about them being a penetrating bomb. i'm just talking about a large bomb exploding on the ground without delayed detonation being able to cause a large crater if the explosive is big enough.
Deletenext i had to look up what a FOAB is and no. again. i don't think so. the explosion was big but not big enough for what the Russians are claiming for their weapon. i guess we can agree to disagree....
Sol, Spud is right, Daisy Cutters smear, they don't penetrate. Basically it causes a mini-firestorm, doesn't do much penetration damage. It can't. The damage profile in the pic is a cone.
DeleteMy call is an underground ammo dump that got hit. The crater looks like something you would get when you do cratering, basically use a conical charge to blast a narrow path into the soil, then the cratering charge gets lowered and detonated underground to push away the soil in a cone. Which mimics what happens when you used something deep penetrating to detonate an ammo dump underground. Hell, it's a classic cratering profile.
dude did you even read the statement? we have no visibility on if the Russians even have a Daisy Cutter the way that we know it and how they employ it. our devices are fuzed to explode above ground. how do we know that they do the same? especially if its designed for use in an urban area?
Deletegeez. get over yourself. we don't know what we don't know and i was merely speculating.
Owl has it right I think. An Iskander-
Deletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K720_Iskander
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KyjKZ4q0E4
Coming in off a high loft at Mach 5-7 might due the trick but would need a heck of a high density penetrator casing and a very precise impact angle to avoid shear forces buckling or skipping the missile with the high sideforces.
I can only compare it to the MGM-140 ATACMS with the TKU2 GCS mod-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03mojJ7yxQw
Which gives us an HDBT (Hard, Deeply Buried Target) capability in different types of elevated and urban terrain.
Also required would be a hardened MEF/HTSF (Multi Event Fuse/Hard Target Smart Fuse) to blow up in whatever void was behind the hole (ventilation shaft, escape hatch?) it more likely went in.
The uplift and cratering is a function of the size of the warhead which is inversely proportional to the size/shape of the casing needed to penetrate. More importantly, the size of the blast effect is inversely proportional to the void volume it explodes in and the mass of the dirt ontop of it. If it is truly 30ft down, you would be more apt to get a subsidization (suck in) effect than a traditional blast crater.
Which, given the size of the fireball in last night's video, seems to indicate something was detonated inside the volume. I would have to see the crater pattern to be certain whether it was an inny or an outie but I believe the size and shape are exaggerated..
I would offer MOP as an illustration of an alternative system approach-
Massive Ordnance Penetrator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_Ordnance_Penetrator
MOP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7cKjmX0T0w
Whereby the size and freefall nature of the weapon allows you to massively increase casewall thickness with a sizeable warhead:munition fraction for a transonic delivery in the Mach 1-1.4 range which is a lot easier to avoid munition sensitivity issues. MOP will go 60ft through concrete and 200ft through dirt and more importantly, can be trajectory shaped within it's release envelope to strike near perfectly vertical.
Compare this to Father Of All Bombs-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJzASnmmxIM
Which is much closer to the original BLU-82 concept in size, profile and delivery mode. The latter is a 'slurry bomb' or 'gel bomb' which uses a mix of diesel and ammonium nitrate, often with a powdered aluminum sensitizers (booster) added which, when detonated _creates_ oxygen through the chemical process of disintegrating molecules, greatly increasing heat. These are not FAEs perse` but are more appropriately termed EB (Enhanced Blast) or Thermobarics.
What makes slurry weapons special is not that they are particularly effective but rather that they are cheap and can be field assembled from low order explosives which are storeable in relatively safe precursor forms (deflagrate, not detonate).
This class of explosive are used most commonly in mining where a hard rock surface has to be shocked over a wide area to crack it and drop the face. In military terms, the BLU-82 gets a lot more press from it's looks than it's effects.
1X BLU-82
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8uHYTwrFsQ
4X 2,000lb Mk.84
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jndtrb3miww.
In terms of brisance, pound for pound, nothing civilian comes close to RDX or HMX.
Having said all this, the guys in those videos really shouldn't be walking around an area where either GSX or mil-grade explosives have been used without respirators as there are some rather toxic byproducts.
M&S, what is the chemical reaction that generates oxygen?
DeleteAs for the "ground penetration", I won't go as far as specialized bunker busters.
One thing you learn from making craters is that the original "base" of the crater is about as deep as it is going to get, hence the prior need to use a shaped charge to dig deep, otherwise you get a very shallow crater. From the video, you can see the deepest part is only slightly more than one man deep, which indicates a single story basement fairly close to the surface. Probably just an underground arms cache or at best a single story house with an underground basement someone was using to store ammo.
As for sympathetic detonation, Eastern stuff is like that, they tend to be sensitive. The West has an "insensitive ammunition" requirement for years, so it burns instead of detonates. This is also why when Western tanks get penetrated, they start burning while T-72/T-80s literally blow off their turrets. It's the difference in ammo and storage safety designs.
@Do the Russians have Daisy Cutters?@
ReplyDeleteSolomon, it would a spot on our “Evil empire” reputation, if we do not! And of course our military report that the bomb (FOAB, they named it) is in 4 times more mighty then USA’s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WwOVo4zENc
http://media.vorotila.ru/ru/items/t1@328c0c3f-1ffd-4e38-8a8a-a40eb733f595/Papa-vseh-bomb-Rossiya.jpg
http://stat17.privet.ru/lr/092d0963ae493f64731cdddd43adb807
http://lemur59.ru/sites/default/files/images/0484.jpg
@I guess a MOAB would cause even greater damage but maybe a Russian Daisy Cutter.@
In the footage of Russian reporters, which is a topic-starter here by fact, it was said that the explosion was in Donetsk’s region but near to position of Ukrainian army. Allegedly it was an explosion on the territory of Donetsk chemical plant (not operational by now), and it was said that the explosion was in Donetsk’s region where vast majority of inhabitants were evacuated.
So if tie it with current cut of the single road in the Debali’s half-pocket made be the Rebels this early morning – I prone to think the grate explosion was the Rebels’ diversion to attract attention to different for Debali part of the front.
A fresh map of the Debali’s half-pocket from the Rebels
http://s020.radikal.ru/i703/1502/da/6724435bbf4b.jpg
Offtopic:
ReplyDeleteThe Rebels reported they captured Ukrainian road-post with PoWs (in Debali’s half-pocket). They forced Ukrainians to jump and say “Who is jumping – is a gay!”. Bgggg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAy6-tZLdHI
Offtopic:
DeleteVideo proof of the road is cut off, Logvinivo is taken. So the Debal'tsevo's pocket is full. We will see how long it lingers. The Ukrainians have 2 battalion tactical’s groups near the place. More to come.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp3SL0yI6gw#t=50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d-WNI5sG_0
DeleteAn another vid from the place. Hard Graphic!
It could have been a 20000 pound FAB-9000: http://cdn-images.9cloud.us/215/hey_reddit_my_fella_alexander_wants_1866001987.640x0.JPG
ReplyDeleteMuch used by Iraq in its war with Iran.
wait!!!! i'm just speculating that this could be a daisy cutter. no one knows what happened with that explosion. for all i know it could simply be an industrial accident at an unknown plant. sorry bout that. just mud balling out loud. didn't mean to give you the idea that my little Daisy Cutter idea might be real.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OTR-21_Tochka
ReplyDeleteAlmost 500kg of HE in the conventional warhead. Sounds about right. That said, that was Ukrainian missile. Not Russian. Seps hold Donetsk, no reason for them or Russians to hit their own city.
Who shot an missile and in the same time an artillery salvo in ruins of chemical plant... sounds weird, definitely not right. And if you think the 500kg of HE can do that explosion... please. And the plant is outside the city not in it.
DeleteI'm no expert but that looked like a low kiloton-range blast. Probably hit a massive stockpile of unsafely-stored separatist munitions. No single conventional bomb in the world is that powerful.
ReplyDeleteConsidering where it hit the question should be: Do the Ukrainians have Daisy Cutters?
ReplyDeleteAlso the large explosion was preceded by smaller ones on the same spot.
To me this seems like a direct hit on some place where too many explosives/munitions were stored too close together resulting in a chain reaction and one large explosion.