Is it just me or does it seem like the Japanese are really pushing small boat handling and raids in their joint training with the USMC?
What has me curious is that it doesn't fit with the published accounts of how they're going to defend the disputed islands from Chinese attacks and points toward a more offensive role for their forces in the future.
Sidenote: I would love to know which JGSDF unit participated in this training. That would provide a bit more visibility on their intentions.
Actually, small boat training isn't that out of line with doctrine. Before you do an amphibious assault, small boat units always go in first to "prep" the ground, so you can think of it as "pre-amphibious assault training". Of course, small boat raids can also be used for harassment by themselves, but by and large, in a strategic sense, it has always been part of an amphibious assault, to map enemy positions, mark minefields/obstacles and to flag landing points/channels.
ReplyDeleteSeen in this light, they are practicing for a scenario where an island which will not be named, gets claimed by force by the country that will not be named, and requires a counter-invasion to reclaim.
I've said it before and i'll say it again. The Japanese are proceeding in their own way to make their military more flexible and responsive and ready for a Chinese tide. Though their military spending might not reflect it, their officer corps and enlisted manpower as demonstrated through their training does reflect it. Small boat tactics are perfect to counter at a low level initial chinese encroachments without raising too much of a diplomatic storm that usually comes with using anything that looks like a "big battleship" as seen by civilian eyes.
ReplyDeleteIf china and japan come to blows on the islands , do you think small boats will be useful when both sides have heavy guns on their naval ships ?
DeleteMost definitely. We must look at what happens before a war. Incursion and attempts to incursion which usually results in escalation before the boom. Especially when it comes with wars regarding territory. Small boats and a force which knows how to maximize the effectiveness of boat raids, coast raids, regular coastal patroling to monitor stuff and the ability to challenge and halt any incursions will always be more successful at preventing war and still getting a victory.
DeleteThe use of such boats prevents countries from comming to blows. Imagine the hysteria Chinese propaganda machine will turn out if they show chinese fishermen or hydrologists or scientists or any civilian camoflauged incursion being chased of by a frigate or destroyer. Much better to have a capable force with Choppers and boats and boats slung under choppers to carry out regular patrols and exercises.
If posession is 9/10 of the law, one needs a force which can possess anything very very quickly and without creating panic or hysteria more than it should be created.
Yes I agree with sarabvir, I absolutely think it will be useful even though I am an ardenent proponent of the domination of ground warfare by well armed and armoured ground vehicles. The presence of such forces could create a great deal of mischief and cause much harassment to enemy forces. And can complement other forms of reconnaissance and strike capabilities.
Deletebunt, that kind of thinking is like saying "Infantry is no longer useful because tanks were invented". Different job, different usage, different vulnerabilities and different countermeasures. Small zodiacs are hard to detect on radar and destroyers and frigates can't be everywhere at once.
DeleteDo you even do your research before mouthing off?
Meanwhile in the other part of the world :
ReplyDeleteConfirmed: Rebels Capture Strategic Town Near Debaltsevo
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/05/us-ukraine-crisis-hospital-idUSKBN0L80Y320150205?irpc=932
It seems 8000-9000 Ukrainian soldiers are now encircled at Debaltsevo.
Deletehttp://www.ukrainewar.info/9000-ukrainian-soldiers-trapped-debaltseve-encirclement-complete/
JGSDF currently do not have any AAVs(They are on order, but not delivered), so they must practice landing drills with whatever they got, rubber boats in this case.
ReplyDeleteI disagree Slow. AAVs are for the main assault, small boats are to prep for the pre-invasion phase. You need teams to go in and assess the ground before the 1st AAV hits the beach. Lots of things to do before the AAV even leaves the LHA. Penetrometer testing to ensure the beach can take the weight of the AAV, gradient measuring to ensure that the AAVs can get up onto the beach, reef checking, minefield checking, scouting of enemy, flagging of safe lanes for the AAV to land, pre-invasion target marking for NGS, then when all the crap is done, you push in to form the outer parameter as a tripwire to detect any hostiles coming in that might mess up the landing before the 1st AAV even hits the beach.
DeleteLots of things to do.
Owl
Delete> small boats are to prep for the pre-invasion phase.
Pre-invasion against what, Chinese occupied Diaoyu Islands? That's a suicide mission. Even though Japan has a strong tradition of Kamikaze, I doubt today's generation is going to volunteer for a Kamikaze mission in 21st century.
I repeat my statement. The only reason JGSDF are using those rubber boats is because they don't have AAV7s yet.
Why would it be a suicide mission? The Chinese haven't developed super soldiers, cyborgs or genetically enhanced supermen yet. And if you say that a counterinvesion is suicide, then why get AAVs in the first place? AAVs are almost purely marine assault units, if the Japanese were being defensive minded, more MBTs and 8x8s would make more sense. AAVs are used in a very limited role. The "suicide" mission you mentioned.
DeleteAnd an AAV is very different from a small boat. It's like trying to learn driving by riding a bicycle. For one, you don't do an in your face assault with a zodiac. An AAV carries a 0.5 cal and armour. A zodiac does not.
OwlThursday
Delete> Why would it be a suicide mission?
Because JGSDF Kamikaze squad would have to break through a couple dozen Chinese warships, then face some 1,000 Chinese troops camping on the island already well fortified, all on rubber boats.
> why get AAVs in the first place?
Because Japan would have to fight a full scale naval battle against the PLAN fleet defending the Diaoyu Islands to even attempt a landing by AAV7s.
Seriously, you think the PLA would just leave the Diaoyu Islands guarded by a dozen troops?
And I turn your own argument against you. If it is such a suicide mission, why get AAVs in the first place if it was bound to fail?
DeleteSimplest answer: Your thinking is not the JGSDF's thinking.
Owl
DeleteThe JGSDF would attempt a landing only after a major naval fleet battle between China and Japan unseen before WW2 takes place and JMSDF is victorious. The Falklands War would be seen as a kiddie play compared to what would take place at the waters of Diaoyu Islands.
The enemy that Japan faces is just too great to even attempt this rubber boat landing.
And what happens after your major naval battle?
DeleteYou are assuming that the first and only thing the Japanese will do is throw rubber boats at destroyers and expect them to take out naval vessels. That's stupidity and in no ways proper planning. Zodiac landings are after the naval engagement and before the AAVs hit the beach.
But that is not your claim is it? Your claim is that THIS is the AAV assault phase, with rubber boats in lieu of AAVs which is nonsense. This is the recon and infiltration phase of the invasion, not the assault phase. Look at the first picture. The gun he's using is the PM-9 9mm SMG. Which army do you know arms the assault wave with SMGs? Line infantry has standardized to 5.56 or 7.62, not 9mm. 9mm is for Special Forces and recon units. Which this is an exercise for.
Owl
Delete> And what happens after your major naval battle?
If PLAN wins, then Japanese retreat and concede.
If JMSDF wins, then they would make full-scale AAV7 landing on Chinese defenders of Diaoyu Islands.
> You are assuming that the first and only thing the Japanese will do is throw rubber boats at destroyers
Where do you get this? Are you drunk?
> Your claim is that THIS is the AAV assault phase
The AAV7 landing comes ONLY AFTER a decisive Japanese victory against two PLAN fleets defending Chinese occupied Diaoyu Islands in what would be remembered as one of the biggest naval battle of the 21st century, a scale of naval battle not seen from WW2 days.
And what happens before your AAV landing?
DeleteThis.
So saying that this is a stand in for an AAV rehersal is bullshit. This is a recon exercise, not an assault.
"JGSDF currently do not have any AAVs(They are on order, but not delivered), so they must practice landing drills with whatever they got, rubber boats in this case."
Your original claim- False.
Owl
Delete> And what happens before your AAV landing?
I told you, a WW2 style massive naval battle between hundreds of warships.
> This is a recon exercise, not an assault.
Why would Japanese military need to do a recon on islands they have been occupying for the past 100 years and know them inside out?
Are you implying that the JGSDF is drilling for a Navy Seal type special op mission into enemy territories they are not familiar with, like North Korea or mainland China?
Oh for the love of God, you're so clueless.
DeleteGeography is one thing. Enemy positions are another.
And all your fuck up theory making does not answer one question. What type of unit is it.
For all your grand strategizing, that unit which is involved in the exercise is still a recon unit, no matter how many ICBMs, Battleships, MBTs or supermen China has, that unit doing the exercise is still a recon unit doing a pre-amphibious landing recon.
Which means all your arguments are just hot air.
So China has carriers, ICBMs, supersubs, etc etc. That means the unit on exercise suddenly gets MBTs and ATGMs! Oh wait, it's still a recon unit.
A bit of reality here please Slow?
Owl
Delete> What type of unit is it.
It is an amphibious landing unit that drills in rubber boats in the absence of proper AAV7s.
> That means the unit on exercise suddenly gets MBTs and ATGMs!
They will get AAV7s in a couple of years, but must do with rubber boats until then.
Bullshit. Then are they short on 5.56 rifles that their unit has to train using 9mm SMGs? When are they getting rifles?
DeleteThis is their version of Marine recon or UDTs. Your explanation of what unit it is, is brushstroke and nonsensical. And recon does NOT use AAVs.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
Specifically, this is probably the Recon company of the WAIR (Western Army Infantry Regiment), their amphibious ops specialists.
Slowman. No. Simply, No.
They want AAVs for training, the USMC actually lends them out with crew, but I bet you don't know that do you?
Sol, unit is probably JGSDF Western Army Infantry Regiment. The gun in the first pic is a PM-9, limited number of units using it, namely their 1st Airborne and the WAIR. The WAIR are amphibious ops specs.
ReplyDeletehttp://archive.today/h64mQ
This was the initial formation of the unit.