After the "action" around PAK-FA and huge problems with engines from Russia... still I don't think they will be too fond to work with them again. But they maybe will need to... or they will need to start to made them from 0.
Why? Well, history shows us how hard such programs are for big well established producers, let alone start ups. The same history shows us this start up certainly is no exception.
You overly negative Dingbat. You shall take the honorary title of "Buntalanlucu" from now on. It doesnt take 11 years to transition from doctrine. It takes a generation....and/or a boot up your ass. As far as infrastructure is concerned, it takes more than a railway carriage and AERV's to support a tank. You are yet to take into account Brigade level and division level workshops. And what about bridges? Have you even driven a Tank before. Let a lone 40-50-60 ton machines in the Thar Desert? Ever personally seen a T-72 being transported and operated and maintained in Leh?
You think the DGMF is just going to authorize the full production of a Tank which even in best case scenarios will not be able to operate as freely as the T-72/90 combo? Good God man.... How un-professional do you think we are? Have you confused us for one of your "Arab Armies"??....This is the Indian Army.
"The tank is basically a homage to the Panzer Tiger"
The above statement------What were you even thinking? Please do elaborate to me your thought process that makes you think its a Tiger tank?
Its not a start up... not even close. There is no technical challenge that cant be overcome within a reasonable time-frame here. Most of the pieces needed with the exception of engine tech exists, and with the growing closeness between the US and India i don't doubt that licensed production of engines will also be sold.
Does India have technical capability to develop a 5th gen aircraft. - Easily. Will it be better than the Chinese "knockoffs" ? - Definitely. Will it be as good or almost as good as western 5th gens ? - Possibly. Will it cost a bucket load less ? - Almost Guaranteed.
Will it be delivered on time? - Probably not. Will there ever be more than a several dozen produced? - Unlikely.
Therein lies the problem, the aircraft is developed by a state run organization the DRDO (defense research development organization), until very recently, private companies, which have vastly superior pay and working conditions and who attract brighter talent, were not allowed to develop weapons or weapon systems under Indian Law (a throwback to socialist leaning policies of Independent India's first few governments).
The best and brightest engineers and scientists from India, end up working for Nasa or Microsoft or whoever is willing to pay well. The next tier end up working in some of the best MNCs within India, considering having an "India Innovation Center" seems to be the In thing right now for most large corporations. The final tier end up working for poor pay and no perks (except job security and a modest pension) at the state run defense research labs. Consider your entire defense development effort being spearheaded by the "C" team. But with all due credit, even they seem to be doing a surprisingly good job at it, with some remarkably capable systems developed so far. With a change in laws and more importantly a new Prime Minister who is seen encouraging private players to step up, this situation is likely to change.
Now coming to the second part of the problem, the developer the DRDO is not the manufacturer. The manufacturer is another state run organization called HAL. Not only are both organizations riddled with bureaucrats and red tape, there is also a large "inter office rivalry" accompanied by loads of whining and bitching.
Imagine an aircraft researched and developed by Airbus being given to Boeing to manufacture. Airbus only works on the paper design and Boeing needs to manufacture the prototypes and revert back for design changes and back and forth. Besides the fact that Boeing will always teat this aircraft as a step child. Now imagine both Airbus and Boeing were state owned and operating in a Soviet republic with 5 year planning commissions and chock full of mid level bureaucrats with penchant for red tape, settling scores and playing "games", and that will give you a perfect picture the messed up defense production situation in India.
TLDR :
Producing a reasonably priced and reasonably capable 5th gen aircraft is easily within the technical capabilites of India. But there are other reasons why it will never be produced in vast quantities.
"Buntalanlucu" ? I have no idea what that means. Would it surprise you that i have actually been to CVRDE ? and spoken to the people there? Would it surprise you that i have first hand knowledge of HAL which lead me to make my statements about bureaucracy and production inefficiency? I am being negative? Deal with bureaucrats as much as i have and see if you continue to be your cheerful chirpy self.
Before you continue further on your tirade... maybe you should realize that this blog has a wider audience than the continental united states. I thought that should have been especially obvious to you.
While i have never been to Leh or Thoise (both of which i have wanted to visit since hearing about it from someone close to me), i have heard about the amazing feat of flying (and read the first hand account) in air delivering the T-72 and artillery there.
coming to my statement "The tank is basically a homage to the Panzer Tiger", i am really astounded how you took offense at that? I compare an well designed Ingeniously manufactured tank to what was undoubtedly the most iconic tank from WWII, one renown for its firepower and protection, one that would take far superior numbers of opponents to take down, and you take offense at that?? What were you thinking??
A well informed source told me of how certain elements in the army had been trying to convince Mr Jaitley place orders for the M1 Abrams, apparently they did not want to be left out in the flurry of arms deal between the US and India. Had a good laugh at that.
Anyways I have noticed some of your other posts on a few threads here, and they seemed to indicate you as competent. so it seems to me that you are easily bristled and quick to anger, and i will not take offense to your post and i hope you don't take any to mine since past experiences colour my views.
I haven't really used disqus, but if you can find a way to email or message me, i will be willing to take this off topic discussion on tanks in an aircraft thread to a more private discussion.
Whoops....got a little bit angry there. No problem....I take back the Dingbat part. A little bit of frustration flows because of the wasted 10 years of modernization after Op. Parakram. A bit surprised about the M1 Abrams part. I bet Jaitely laughed the hardest at that proposal if it even was made. The rumours in the army and those are only rumours...is that your career gets an axe if you go about proposing 60+ ton tanks.
It initially made me a little sceptic at your Tiger comment because most of the Arjun is a localized/imported Leopard 2. From its concept about ceramic armour needing more "shock absorbing contact area", thus the reason for almost 90 degree vertical armour panels to its suspension system and the obvious MTU diesel....with licensed copy Renk transmission, internal Air conditioning and many other bits.
Even I have dealt with Govt. inefficiency....heck I bet I have inadvertently caused some of it myself. But on the Arjun front its going to take a lot, a lot of homework in a whole lot of areas before we can imagine converting our Tank fleet into western standard 65 ton Tanks. The most true early indicator of this wont be bridges built....or railway carriages but increased exercise slots and trainers and classes for "Tank Loader" course. Keep watching the Armored Corps Centre and Schools news letter for more news on that. Arjun doesnt have a auto loader.
About as happy as they are with US screwing them over engines for Tejas or French cooperation on Rafale project. Russia is still their best bet considering they are not to fond of Chinese.
After the "action" around PAK-FA and huge problems with engines from Russia... still I don't think they will be too fond to work with them again. But they maybe will need to... or they will need to start to made them from 0.
ReplyDeleteI very much doubt they can do it.
ReplyDeleteWhy?
Well, history shows us how hard such programs are for big well established producers, let alone start ups. The same history shows us this start up certainly is no exception.
You overly negative Dingbat. You shall take the honorary title of "Buntalanlucu" from now on. It doesnt take 11 years to transition from doctrine. It takes a generation....and/or a boot up your ass. As far as infrastructure is concerned, it takes more than a railway carriage and AERV's to support a tank. You are yet to take into account Brigade level and division level workshops. And what about bridges? Have you even driven a Tank before. Let a lone 40-50-60 ton machines in the Thar Desert? Ever personally seen a T-72 being transported and operated and maintained in Leh?
ReplyDeleteYou think the DGMF is just going to authorize the full production of a Tank which even in best case scenarios will not be able to operate as freely as the T-72/90 combo? Good God man.... How un-professional do you think we are? Have you confused us for one of your "Arab Armies"??....This is the Indian Army.
"The tank is basically a homage to the Panzer Tiger"
The above statement------What were you even thinking? Please do elaborate to me your thought process that makes you think its a Tiger tank?
Its not a start up... not even close. There is no technical challenge that cant be overcome within a reasonable time-frame here. Most of the pieces needed with the exception of engine tech exists, and with the growing closeness between the US and India i don't doubt that licensed production of engines will also be sold.
ReplyDeleteDoes India have technical capability to develop a 5th gen aircraft. - Easily.
Will it be better than the Chinese "knockoffs" ? - Definitely.
Will it be as good or almost as good as western 5th gens ? - Possibly.
Will it cost a bucket load less ? - Almost Guaranteed.
Will it be delivered on time? - Probably not.
Will there ever be more than a several dozen produced? - Unlikely.
Therein lies the problem, the aircraft is developed by a state run organization the DRDO (defense research development organization), until very recently, private companies, which have vastly superior pay and working conditions and who attract brighter talent, were not allowed to develop weapons or weapon systems under Indian Law (a throwback to socialist leaning policies of Independent India's first few governments).
The best and brightest engineers and scientists from India, end up working for Nasa or Microsoft or whoever is willing to pay well. The next tier end up working in some of the best MNCs within India, considering having an "India Innovation Center" seems to be the In thing right now for most large corporations. The final tier end up working for poor pay and no perks (except job security and a modest pension) at the state run defense research labs. Consider your entire defense development effort being spearheaded by the "C" team. But with all due credit, even they seem to be doing a surprisingly good job at it, with some remarkably capable systems developed so far. With a change in laws and more importantly a new Prime Minister who is seen encouraging private players to step up, this situation is likely to change.
Now coming to the second part of the problem, the developer the DRDO is not the manufacturer. The manufacturer is another state run organization called HAL. Not only are both organizations riddled with bureaucrats and red tape, there is also a large "inter office rivalry" accompanied by loads of whining and bitching.
Imagine an aircraft researched and developed by Airbus being given to Boeing to manufacture. Airbus only works on the paper design and Boeing needs to manufacture the prototypes and revert back for design changes and back and forth. Besides the fact that Boeing will always teat this aircraft as a step child. Now imagine both Airbus and Boeing were state owned and operating in a Soviet republic with 5 year planning commissions and chock full of mid level bureaucrats with penchant for red tape, settling scores and playing "games", and that will give you a perfect picture the messed up defense production situation in India.
TLDR :
Producing a reasonably priced and reasonably capable 5th gen aircraft is easily within the technical capabilites of India. But there are other reasons why it will never be produced in vast quantities.
"Buntalanlucu" ? I have no idea what that means. Would it surprise you that i have actually been to CVRDE ? and spoken to the people there? Would it surprise you that i have first hand knowledge of HAL which lead me to make my statements about bureaucracy and production inefficiency? I am being negative? Deal with bureaucrats as much as i have and see if you continue to be your cheerful chirpy self.
ReplyDeleteBefore you continue further on your tirade... maybe you should realize that this blog has a wider audience than the continental united states. I thought that should have been especially obvious to you.
While i have never been to Leh or Thoise (both of which i have wanted to visit since hearing about it from someone close to me), i have heard about the amazing feat of
flying (and read the first hand account) in air delivering the T-72 and
artillery there.
coming to my statement "The tank is basically a homage to the Panzer Tiger", i am really astounded how you took offense at that? I compare an well designed Ingeniously manufactured tank to what was undoubtedly the most iconic tank from WWII, one renown for its firepower and protection, one that would take far superior numbers of opponents to take down, and you take offense at that?? What were you thinking??
A well informed source told me of how certain elements in the army had been trying to convince Mr Jaitley place orders for the M1 Abrams, apparently they did not want to be left out in the flurry of arms deal between the US and India. Had a good laugh at that.
Anyways I have noticed some of your other posts on a few threads here, and they seemed to indicate you as competent. so it seems to me that you are easily bristled and quick to anger, and i will not take offense to your post and i hope you don't take any to mine since past experiences colour my views.
I haven't really used disqus, but if you can find a way to email or message me, i will be willing to take this off topic discussion on tanks in an aircraft thread to a more private discussion.
Whoops....got a little bit angry there. No problem....I take back the Dingbat part. A little bit of frustration flows because of the wasted 10 years of modernization after Op. Parakram. A bit surprised about the M1 Abrams part. I bet Jaitely laughed the hardest at that proposal if it even was made. The rumours in the army and those are only rumours...is that your career gets an axe if you go about proposing 60+ ton tanks.
ReplyDeleteIt initially made me a little sceptic at your Tiger comment because most of the Arjun is a localized/imported Leopard 2. From its concept about ceramic armour needing more "shock absorbing contact area", thus the reason for almost 90 degree vertical armour panels to its suspension system and the obvious MTU diesel....with licensed copy Renk transmission, internal Air conditioning and many other bits.
Even I have dealt with Govt. inefficiency....heck I bet I have inadvertently caused some of it myself. But on the Arjun front its going to take a lot, a lot of homework in a whole lot of areas before we can imagine converting our Tank fleet into western standard 65 ton Tanks. The most true early indicator of this wont be bridges built....or railway carriages but increased exercise slots and trainers and classes for "Tank Loader" course. Keep watching the Armored Corps Centre and Schools news letter for more news on that. Arjun doesnt have a auto loader.
About as happy as they are with US screwing them over engines for Tejas or French cooperation on Rafale project. Russia is still their best bet considering they are not to fond of Chinese.
ReplyDelete