Fueling the broader debate over policy is an independent report to be issued Monday by eight former senior U.S. officials, who are to urge the United States to send $3 billion in defensive arms and equipment to Ukraine, including anti-armor missiles, reconnaissance drones, armored Humvees and radars that can determine the location of enemy rocket and artillery fire.Why does this seem so much like the buildup to the war in Vietnam?
Still think this won't spiral? Still think that the power that be actually have a plan to deal with this?
The world is burning and leadership doesn't have a clue.
Sidenote: What will be the Russian counter? How will they respond? I still get the impression that we're behind them in the decision making loop.
What they won't consider, unfortunately, is a sensible diplomatic solution. Minsk, abandoned by Poroshenko, called for a federated Ukraine, which is Russia's position. Allowance for some autonomy in Donbass so the ethnic Russians can retain their rights and their language. Think Quebec. Also Russia needs to keep Crimea, as in former times, that's essential. But Poro reneged, and went offensive, probably because he couldn't disappoint his Nazi backers, so here we are. Russia can't lose, in a relatively small area which has no strategic interest to the U.S.
ReplyDelete@Minsk, abandoned by Poroshenko, called for a federated Ukraine, which is Russia's position
DeleteFor starters, go read on the Minsk protocol here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_Protocol
Special status was granted by Poroshenko
http://itar-tass.com/en/world/754873
Which was revoked AFTER sepos held their pseudo-elections on Nov 2 (in breach of Minsk protocol Ensure early local elections in accordance with the law of Ukraine "about local government provisional arrangements in some areas of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts" (law on the special status).
http://tass.ru/en/world/758024
@so the ethnic Russians can retain their rights and their language
Dude, even in Kiev nobody cares if you speak russian (which I did plenty back in December), not to mention most of the Ukrainian armed forces use russian for internal comms.
@But Poro reneged, and went offensive,
would you kindly look at the maps and list a few cities/villages that Ukrainian forces occupied since the cease fire begining?
@he couldn't disappoint his Nazi backers
[wiki] Nazism subscribed to theories of racial hierarchy and social Darwinism. Germanic peoples (called the Nordic race) were depicted as true "Aryans", and the "master race". Opposed to both capitalism and Marxism, it aimed to overcome social divisions, with all parts of a homogeneous society seeking national unity, and what it viewed as historically German territory as well as additional lands for expansion.
You do realize that there were few (if any) killings in Ukraine because of someone speaking russian? And if this Nazi definition actually fits Putler's russia much better than it does Ukrainians, who are actually fighting off an foreign invasion into their own country?
Btw, aren't you saying that russia had 'legitimate interests' in Crimea? Because that's the actual explanation Hitler used to annex Sudettenland:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetenland
@AFTER sepos held their pseudo-elections on Nov 2@
Deletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwHlb51vQBc
Do you know this vid? It was during “ president elections” which Poroshenko “won”. Single real opposition candidate who presents not the Junta, captured Kiev during Maydan 2014, but Donbass – Oleg Tzarev was kicked by Ukrainian Nazi this time after he took part in political debate on Tv, stripped and his pants were shown on Maidan square.
This is real question which “election” was more “pseudo”.
@Dude, even in Kiev nobody cares if you speak russian @
An old demagogic trick – “if you are not kicked on Maydan for Russian language – so there is no problem with Russian language on Ukraine”.
After Junta took power in Kiev one of the first “law” they try to decree – law about termination “Russian language law” adopted some time before and taken very bad by Ukrainian Nazi. This “Russian language law”, by fact, gives no noticeable advantage to Russian language such, it just stipulated process of protection right for “national minorities” to speak their languages (not only Russian). But anyway Ukrainian Nazi leading by Irina Farion tried to terminate even such impotent Language law.
@would you kindly look@
He calls-up new troops in Ukrainian army (100 000 they plan to),personally and solemnly puts into service a lot of AV’s and artillery systems. What is it if not offensive behavior and preparation to further war?
@ Nazism subscribed to theories of racial hierarchy and social Darwinism.@
DeleteAn old demagogic trick again. I try to hide main sense after marginal details. Nazi – someone who disperse idea about genetic superiority, one of performance the idea is giving humiliated definitions “genetic scrap”, “cattle”, “alcoholic by nature”, “degenerates” and so on. Another performance (one of many) – usage of German Nazi troops uniform and another Nazi (and neo-Nazi) symbols as well.
A concrete example, concerning SNAFU-blog and you personally. Even here, under iron Solomon’s discipline, from time to time Nazi propaganda appears.
I mean this topic
http://snafu-solomon.blogspot.ru/2015/01/mariupol-today-after-shelling-why.html#comment-form
shota sabauri posted this pic with Nazi-propaganda against Russians https://pp.vk.me/c624720/v624720201/1b1f7/dBeEuY_joQ4.jpg
which stated that each Russian is “cattle” and shota sabauri “the essence of the Russian people”.
I’d pointed this out. But afterward a shining westerner Andrius Juozapaitis appeared and begun to prove the Nazi propaganda against Russians.
So, what we have? At my take, we have one Nazi, who create the pic, another Nazi (shota sabauri) who posted it on SNAFU blog, and a Nazi supporter (at least) – you.
Nazi ideas among Ukrainians against Russians are very old. Just for example – this is Internet discussion on censor net - an Ukrainian media forum- dated 15.08.2006 (!!!) and some one with nickname “John” at 14.43 posted this:Мне кажется, что у русских людей определенно проблемы с генетикой, иначе почему они настолько злые и агрессивные. По-моему от одной водки такими "кретинами" не становятся. Определённо они произошли от какой-то больной мартышки...|| It seems to me that the Russian people are definitely problems with genetics, or why they are so angry and aggressive. In my opinion one of such vodka "nerds" are not. Definitely they are descended from some sick monkey.
http://censor.net.ua/forum/336589/quotrusskaya_obschina_krymaquot_napala_na_krymskih_tatar_massovaya_draka_v_tsentre_bahchisaraya/sortby/tree/order/desc/page/3#comments
@And if this Nazi definition actually fits Putler's russia much better than it does Ukrainians, who are actually fighting off an foreign invasion into their own country@
So what is your definition to NATO’s countries, who attacked Serbia and Iraq because of some unclear reason?
@Because that's the actual explanation Hitler used to annex Sudettenland:@
After NATO’s unpunished aggression against Serbia all international law statments, forbidden “aggression”, are not operational. After Saacashvily unpunished attacked with Grad’s Zhinval with UN-authorized peacekeepers – the relevant international law statements are not operational as well. Just because each law must be general without any exception.
@I try to hide main sense after marginal details.@
DeleteDamnation. I did it again. Bgggg)))
''YOU try to hide main sense after marginal details'' - it is correct
@one of the first “law” they try to decree
DeleteThere was a proposition of law that this not move past the proposition as it was rejected as violation of constitution. This argument info' has no value, if we would take in to account every stupid proposition that go thru Duma, as you know that some of them were really moronic... what would we think about Russia?
@He calls-up new troops in Ukrainian army (100 000 they plan to),personally and solemnly puts into service a lot of AV’s and artillery systems. What is it if not offensive behavior and preparation to further war?
And the Russians are not mobilize men and send more equipment? It's not like the Ukrainians have NO reason to do this... they have a shit tons of reasons. On of them is that they are at war.
And pretend that every Ukrainian is an Nazi is weak info' it's not true, it's false flag that was created to casus belli against the nation. In times of Yanukovich regime Russia did not saw a problem with thous movements... but when Kremlu puppet run away it became a problem... please.
@But afterward a shining westerner Andrius Juozapaitis appeared and begun to prove the Nazi propaganda against Russians.
DeleteDude, seriously? The pic has nothing to do with Nazi ideology. It's a pure illustration of what your herr putin said in his speech, which I also linked in my response, don't pretend you didn't see it. I suppose Solomon and others have problem understanding russian, but hey, take a look at it again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wab2lQ4Dp_g
(about Ukrainian military) ...And let's see if any of the soldiers will shoot at their own people, because WE (russian army) will be standing behind them. Not in front, but behind them. Let them shoot at women and children. I want to see who will give that order in Ukraine.
Am I nazi? No fucking way. Are russkies nazi's? Some of them surely are.
Also, I do tend to read some reader comments on gazeta.ru. There are some really, really sick people expressing their opinions there, for example this was posted in response to Mariupol shelling, where 30 people were killed:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t31.0-8/1614189_10153043098358147_8461675195173022343_o.jpg
@This argument info' has no value@
DeleteDisagree, pan. This preposition is real example that there were/are a lot of problems with Russian language on Ukraine. Not to mention disorders organized by Ukrainian Bandera-wannabes after above said “Language law” was implemented by Ukrainian Parliament.
@every stupid proposition that go thru Duma,@
Would you be so kind any example of Dumas drafts-laws which decreasing rights of National minorities to speak their own languages? I really can’t recall any such examples.
@And the Russians are not mobilize me@
There is no mobilization in Russia.
@send more equipment?@
I do not oppose the statement about “Russian aggression” against Ukraine. But we still have no proofs about invasion of Russian army on Ukraine soil. Bla-bla-bla only.
@It's not like the Ukrainians have NO reason to do this@
Offensive behavior cause offensive behavior in turn. My posture is that Ukrainian behavior is aggressive and offensive too. At my take, they have all reasons to performance this, but it doesn’t deny offensive nature.
@every Ukrainian is an Nazi @
Pan, I never said this. At least, I keep Donbass rebels as Ukrainians too. The problem is in active and sequential Nazi propaganda in Ukraine (unpunished with the state) and usage of Bandera-wannabe as instrument for oligarchic competitions for markets, assets and money-flows.
@ it's false flag that was created to casus belli against the nation. @
“Casus belly”– is not a correct term here, I dare to suppose. There is no war (in the traditional sense) between Ukraine and Russia because of a lot of reason. Our countries still trade with each other, a Ukrainian oligarchs have a lot of assets in RF, as well as Russian oligarchs – in Ukraine. I have one correct definition for the Donbass madness – a rebellion, even a civil war is not correct here. But tensions between the West of Ukraine and the East – are the main drivers for the situation, which is advantageous for vast majority of geopolitical and regional subjects.
@Kremlu puppet @
I see no reason to name him so. He was puppet of Ukrainian super-oligarch Ahmetov, but step-by-step Yanukovich tried to play his own game, pretending to became an oligarch too - this is the one of main reasons of the Kiev’s Maidan-2014 riot.
Do note, that the comments on gazeta.ru are all moderated. It explicitly calls to murder civilians.
Delete@He calls-up new troops in Ukrainian army (100 000 they plan to),personally and solemnly puts into service a lot of AV’s and artillery systems. What is it if not offensive behavior and preparation to further war?
Deleteinfo, would you kindly list the cities and/or villages that were occupied by Ukrainian forces since the cease-fire agreement? Because you are just answering parts of my questions, selectively.
Ukraine has been in anal defense mode for a while now, and losing ground (~500 sq/km since September 2014), and the mobilization has only been called when sepos took over Donetsk airport. Where the fsck is that offensive you are talking about?
@The pic has nothing to do with Nazi ideology.@
DeleteAnother words, you are not against the statement “all Baltic people are cattle”? I’m against – as well against any idea of genetic superiority (including Russian Nazi, it is a shame but we have the same shit too).
@what your herr putin said in his speech@
Your interpretation of his words only.
@because WE (russian army) will be standing behind them. @
There is no Russian army there. They (Ukrainian oligarchs and the rebels) just try to revise their own places in local ‘food-chain”. In context of geopolitical competition between Russian and Western oligarchic elites, of course. Military issues play the second role here.
@Am I nazi?@
A supporter.
@https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t31.0-8/1614189_10153043098358147_8461675195173022343_o.jpg@
These ideas are not popular among Russians. And it may be a provocateur.
info, if a person living there said that there was no problem, are we really qualified to say no considering that we are not even there to see in person while he is?
DeleteAnyway, it's a bit of a moot point, I can sort of see where the end goal is going to be, probably an independent buffer state between Ukraine, now firmly in the Western camp, and Russia. Neither side can really generate enough force to overrun the other side without outside help, and I mean soldiers being deployed, not just toys, and while Russia is already doing that, it probably does not want to go further than a buffer state to separate it from the West. Taking over Ukraine means that it is now next door to NATO, an uncomfortable position for it.
I suspect this Russian intervention is more or less a means to put up a fence between it and someone it is suspicious of.
@This preposition is real example that there were/are a lot of problems with Russian language on Ukraine.
DeleteThat was only a proposition info' that was rejected by Ukrainians as violation of constitution, no info' this is argument without power... the law give you the power to presents every type of idea, the constitutional tribunal check it if it is fair with the Constitution. It was not, it was rejected... by Ukrainians. You are in "what if" department... the fact is that this law don't exist as it would be violation of Ukrainian constitution.
@Offensive behavior cause offensive behavior in turn. My posture is that Ukrainian behavior is aggressive and offensive too. At my take, they have all reasons to performance this, but it doesn’t deny offensive nature.
For some time, Ukrainians are in defense and seppos attacking. Ukrainians are not aggressive side now, seppos are.
Bandera and his movement was not an Nazist, he was even the enemy of them for most time and end because of that in Concentration Camp. He is an "nazi" because he fight against soviets... just like Polish underground was also a "nazist" because they fight against soviets bandits groups called by "glorious" name now as partisans. The underground that fought for soviets were called only as fascist... and they die the same way as "nazists". Suicide by bullet in the back of the head.
@what your herr putin said in his speech@
Delete@Your interpretation of his words only.
Would you kindly share your interpretation? Because that is LITERALLY what he said.
@There is no Russian army there. @
Let's not forget the Pskov paratroopers back in August, and some guys that were captured while being lost deep in Ukrainian territory, not to mention Girkin et al. Let's not go back to the rhetoric of 'little green men', because everybody knows by now who they are.
@Where the fsck is that offensive you are talking about?@
DeleteThey stay near cities and towns, controlled by rebels, commit artillery salvos because of each civilians die and civilian infrastructure is damaged/destroyed – and this is not offensive?
When Ukrainians hit civilian infrastructure - "they're animals and must all die". When terrorists hit a bus, a Boeing, or just cover the Mariupol in Grads - it always starts with "ha we killed ukrops" then, when news shows it was civilians they say "wasn't us, ukrops shelled their own checkpoint" and then, when everybody (including OSCE) is pointing finger at them, they just shrug their shoulders and reply "war is war".
DeleteOh, and DNR announced a 'voluntary mobilization', expect to get around 100k conscripts (out of what? 2million population of the territory under their control?). I expect regular army currently at the border with Ukraine will be removing their signs every day now, and start losing themselves in Ukraine again.
@info, would you kindly list the cities and/or villages@
DeleteI can't - here your point is correct, I confess.
To Shas
Delete@You are in "what if" department.@
Not only me. A lot of Russian speaking Ukrainian took it the same. You should know that language question is very sensitive for present Ukraine. It was not responsible act to issue the preposition.
@Ukrainians are in defense and seppos attacking.@
I guess the main reason here – painful Ukrainian loses in Campaign-2014.
@Bandera and his movement was not an Nazist,@ @ He is an "nazi" because he fight against soviets@
May be you a right – I’m not skillful in Bandera’s story – but current Ukrainian Bandera-wannabe – use Nazi and neo-Nazi symbols very active. Just an example.
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/c/p/cpotapych/n10.jpg
@they fight against soviets bandits groups called by "glorious" name now as partisans.@
bandera’s troops killed civil Ukrainian, Polish, Jew and Russians –this is why Russians hate Bandera-wannabe so much. Finnish fight against us too – but we have no problems with them.
And partizan’s activity put in an important share in our Victory over Nazi Germany and their satellites and allies.
To Andrius Juozapaitis
Delete@Would you kindly share your interpretation? Because that is LITERALLY what he said. @
With pleasure. My interpretation of the Putin’s speech – in one word:“provocation”. Ukrainian military were paralyzed with possible Russian attack and this caused Slavyansk’ deal possible. As a variant.
@ not to mention Girkin et al.@
Girkin is not an Army. Each Army is the system – large and noticeable. The blows near Volnovaha’s road post, were a civilian bus was hit, was caught by two different cameras. But we still have no reliable footage of Russian army AV’s column in Ukraine. We have no large-scale hit against military infrastructure in Ukraine – another obvious mark of direct military invasion.
@'little green men'@. Rumors go that vast majority of “green polite men” in Crimea were mercs. Why not? A regular NATO countries’ practice. My posture is – we have no sign of RF’s army’s (as a system) presence on Ukraine. At least, by now.
To Andrius Juozapaitis
Delete@"they're animals and must all die".@
Not my words. Ukrainians Nazis are my own must-die-enemies until they do not stop call to kill Russians. But even then I do not keep them as animals.
@ When terrorists hit a bus, a Boeing, or just cover the Mariupol in Grads @
There are no proofs the rebels did it. There are no transparent investigation about the crimes with facts operating. For example – where communication’s footage between an Ukrainian dispatcher and the Boeing’s pilots. It is regular practice in airplane’s catastrophes, but not for this case.
@just shrug their shoulders and reply "war is war". @
Ukrainians do the same.
@expect to get around 100k conscripts @
I’m very interested who will pay for this.
@I expect regular army currently at the border with Ukraine will be removing their signs every day now, and start losing themselves in Ukraine again.@
We will see what will be. I just can say that I see no reason for full-scale invasion of RF’s army in Ukraine territory by now. Even if the rebels lose in Debalitsevo and Ukrainians kick them out of Donetsk – Lugansk will remain under control of the rebels – it is more then enough for RF’s advantage (IMHO) of course.
@May be you a right – I’m not skillful in Bandera’s story – but current Ukrainian Bandera-wannabe – use Nazi and neo-Nazi symbols very active. Just an example.
DeleteIn some cases like Adar "battalion" there were actions of some Nazist symbolic. You show interesting symbol, it is not related to know Nazi iconography, maybe it is a local symbol but not related to world know symbolism.
@bandera’s troops killed civil Ukrainian, Polish, Jew and Russians –this is why Russians hate Bandera-wannabe so much.
What is the most interesting... that Stepan Bandera was not ordered the actions in Vholynia against mainly Poles. He was in that time in concentration camp... it was done by organisation he was coo-creator imo.
@And partizan’s activity put in an important share in our Victory over Nazi Germany and their satellites and allies.
They put also an important share in killing our underground field units. Most of Soviets "partisans" groups in eastern Poland under occupation were common bandits and murderers. They terrorize villages, pillaging, killing and raping and run away and single sound of incoming Germans. In many cases they were lead by NKVD operatives. When the Soviet Union became "ally of our ally's" the AK HQ (highly infiltrated by NKVD and even an Gestapo) order field commander to help the "partisans" it too many times end with massacre as "partisans" invite underground field commanders to meetings, disarm them and murder whole squads. It create the curious situations where acting on own accord some field commanders reach the agreements with local German units on some form of "case fire" to fight against those "partisan's".
I don't know about other's "partisans" but the ones that operate in Eastern Poland were wild bands of rabid animals that were hunted and killed for grave crimes they done against Poles.
@ we have no sign of RF’s army’s (as a system) presence on Ukraine
DeleteBut we do have russian officers, russian uniforms, russian MREs, russian tanks, russian btrs, russian AKs, russian grads, russian AA weapons, etc. Deniability? They sure have that. Moral and legal right to be there and support the seps? Nope.
I am really looking forward to the moment when russians in UN will be crying for international help because unmarked vehicles strongly resembling chinese variants are steamrolling through Siberia, and everyone will be rolling their eyes and asking for proof.
@Moral and legal right to be there and support the seps? @
DeleteAfter Int law was completely broken and fallen. Only on right remains - "might-is-right". Ukrainians shared NATO’s aggression against Iraq, so now they fall under Russian aggression.
@chinese variants are steamrolling through Siberia@
Interesting dreams. For China is greatly more advantageous – to trade with us then fight. They are good in economy issues, not military (but they are developing very fast here, I must to confess).
But even the shit would happen I guess RF will not cry anywhere – we just burn them as well as any another country, directly attacking us or preparing to attack, or any union of countries. There is no matter for nuke flame how much millions of people to burn – China has a very uncomfortable geographic location for nuke-war, you know.
So the monkey with a nuclear grenade is real after all. And you call me a Nazi...
DeleteInfo, I thought you were French?
DeleteThe modern way of dealing with proof seems to be for Russia, as well as for certain parts of our western politics, including my prime minister : 'It is not true' End of discussion.
Delete'But look at this picture, this document' 'It is not true' . Somehow this is very effective.. which annoys me to a huge extent. Facts seem to be inconvenient things to quickly dismiss or to bury under a huge mountain of populist manure.
It does not matter if there are 10 Russian specialists, 100 advisers or 10.000 troops.. they simply are not there..
I call it the Shaggy defense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g5Hz17C4is
But lets assume there are no Russian troops in the East of Ukraine at all , then still this quote from Info-infantrie: "My posture is – we have no sign of RF’s army’s (as a system) presence on Ukraine. At least, by now. " is a lie.
Why? Because we seem to forget that the Crimea is a part of Ukraine.. or is it not anymore?
@Info, I thought you were French?@
DeleteI’m a pure, mere and solid Russian orc. From Russia with love. Bggggg
Andrius Juozapaitis
Delete@So the monkey with a nuclear grenade is real after all. @
May be in some terms it is a correct image. So what?
@And you call me a Nazi.@
A Nazi supporter, I dare to correct.
to Meint Veldman
Delete@Because we seem to forget that the Crimea is a part of Ukraine@
And Cosovo is a part of Serbia - right?
Please remind me, was Kosovo annexed by USA or Germany?
DeleteTo Andrius Juozapaitis
DeleteWith pleasure and respect:
no, Kosovo didn’t annexed (at first, because it is not possible technically – colonies are not popular by now). But, is there any referendum in Serbia or (at least) in Kosovo – about the Kosovo’s independence?
Turns out, there was:
DeleteAn independence referendum was held in Kosovo, then known as the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija between 26 and 30 September 1991.
And just so that we are clear on the semantics:
Annexation (Latin ad, to, and nexus, joining) is the forcible acquisition of a state's territory by another state. Usually, it is implied that the territory and population being annexed is the smaller, more peripheral, and weaker of the two merging entities, barring physical size.
Info.. you are playing with words.
DeleteFactually, yes the Crimea is part of Russia and not the Ukraine, BECAUSE Russia has troops there that the Ukraine can not hope to defeat. But that automatically means Russia has troops there..
Legally it is part of the Ukraine. There are several big differences between Kosovo and the Ukraine.
- It became an independent nation, not part of an other/
- Its citizens at least technical had a choice.
- It has been recognized by the international community at large.
But most importantly:
- There was a darned good reason to split this of.. i the form of mass murder, ethnic cleansing and such. One that does not exist for the Crimea.
Wanting to stop rape and murder is a bit of a different reason then a neighbor wanting a harbor for its fleet..
Andrius Juozapaitis
Delete@known as the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija between 26 and 30 September 1991. @
A very uncertain political argument. The above said referendum was conducted in 1991, but decision about Kosovo’s independence was made in 2008 (!!!!!) by Kosovo’s Parlament. Serbia does not recognize the Referendum of 1991 or Decision – 2008. More of this, the Referendum of 1991 was made according to unclear procedure – without any election districts and general lists of voters.
@forcible acquisition of a state's territory by another state. @
The Crimea first conducted referendum where it was two questions – recovering Crimean Constitution-1992 or become a part of Russia. Vast majority voted for the second variant. On the base of the Referendum Crimea declared independence from Ukraine and made decision to become a part of Russia.
I see no “acquisition of a state's territory by another state” here.
To Meint Veldman
Delete@But that automatically means Russia has troops there..@
Yes first – on the basis of international agreement with Ukraine according Russian Crimean fleet, now it is our territory and we can do there whatever we want.
@Legally it is part of the Ukraine.@
Can you prove your position with legal arguments? I would be entirely happy if you answer on such question:
- Why USSR collapse is legal if it was stipulated by leaders of just 3 republics out of 15 and after a referendum, on which vast majority of all USSR citizens (76,4%) voted “Yes” to USSR’s further existence?
- Why status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine is legal if it was taken to Ukrainian SSR with direct violation of relevant Constitution of USSR? (Here is an article in Russian about the issue http://www.sovsekretno.ru/articles/id/4087)
- Why status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine is legal if Ukraine terminated in unilateral order Crimean Constitution-1992, established on the basis of overall Crimean referendum?
- Why Russia should recognize Ukrainian borders if a single legal document, established the above said borders, was factually terminated by Ukraine? I mean so called the Great agreement (see text in Russian here http://sevkrimrus.narod.ru/ZAKON/1997god.htm), the article 6 of the above said agreement stipulated further: “Each of the High Contracting Parties shall refrain from participation in or support any act aimed against the other High Contracting Party, and undertakes not to conclude with third countries any treaties directed against the other Party. Neither Party will not allow also to its territory to be used to the detriment of the other Party.” Ukraine took part in Russia-Georgia war 2008, so they terminated the Great agreement by deed.
- Why Russia should recognize Ukrainian borders if they are not still marked and imitated in relevant order (legally speaking they do not exist by law)?
- Why Russia should recognize Ukrainian borders if after Maydan riot – 2014 the Ukrainian state was re-established by fact? Yes, vast majority of former Ukrainian regions recognized rioters as a new authority. Bud part of Donbass does not recognize? Yes, Russia recognized rioters as Ukrainian authority but it doesn’t mean Russia re-establish all legal deeds with the Ukrainian state, existed before the Maydan riot-2014.
@ Its citizens at least technical had a choice.@
Prove, please, that Crimeans have no choice? Do you know that Serbs (about 26 000 of them)of Northern Kosovo conducted a referendum (in February of 2012) according to which they do not recognized Kosovo’s authorities? Have any info about something the same in Crimea?
@ - It has been recognized by the international community at large.@ Because of Western pressure – I suppose.
Offtopic
ReplyDeleteDozens of Ukrainian's tanks are heading to Donbass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNudhBFhXQg
@What will be the Russian counter?@
ReplyDeleteOne result of the supply I can foresee completely concrete – Russian military will get some samples of the above said equipment, drones, weapon and vehicles. And not only as trophy, but the first – just buy it from Ukrainians as such.
Offtopic
ReplyDeleteSome photos about specific of Ukrainian war-theatre. THE MUD rules here!!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B8oJdevIMAEEi4J.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B8oJdg6IgAERAB1.jpg
Ehhh...the US just need to say that Ukrainians buy this from hunters shop and they don't send anything for them. Just like Russians, this is the fool game for two.
ReplyDeleteIt's too late : ukrainian manpower is gone... their 100000 troops will looks like the 1945 german army : everything that was too young or unable when situation wasn't catastrophic !
ReplyDeleteto fabsther
Delete@ukrainian manpower is gone.@
I don’t think so. But the definitely need time to decently prepare to warfare. Croatian scenario – is the most optimal for Ukrainians (IMHO).
I would add that russia had far more difficulties to support yougoslavia in 90's, with catastrophic budget and huge distance, the desaperate need of airstrip ( shown at pristina airport ) and in contrary the full and unlimited delivery of weapons to separatist by OTAN, which had italy very close.
DeleteIn the current situation, ukraine can't expect weapon superiority in quantity or quality.
They perhaps can get their 100000 soldiers, but with will they be efficient ?
And we all know the quality of OTAN training : it's almost don't work even with full OTAN Air support.
to fabsther
Delete@shown at pristina airport@
I suppose the case was an unilateral initiative of our military. I’m not sure it had any important influence on the issue in general.
@ukraine can't expect weapon superiority in quantity or quality.@
Disagree, monsieur. Ukraine have complete superiority in military issues quantity or quality over the Rebels. Organization (specially political one) is the main Ukrainian problem. As well as the Rebel’s.
@And we all know the quality of OTAN training@
It looks like they training for long-distance running very well. A very important skill if you have deal with the Russian Army, bgggg))))
From what i heard from french blue helmets, Much things came in and out from pristina airport.
DeleteIn terms of weapon quality, what can expect ukraine ? Milan, tow, like irak and al nostra ? Perhaps javelin, if they can work at -40 Celcius ?
What will come in front immediatly ? Kornet e like hezbolla...weappn far more modern than 80's milan and tow...
In terms of quantity i don t believe in ukraine support and logistics. Thats the critical points of all modern army You would make me believe that army would have a good one ? That thèse logistics would ne still alive after This time ? I even Heard about separatist blowing up bridges behind enemy lines...
I m not impress when i see a train of t64... And they waste si Much artillery, unconcentrated, on civilian area ?
I believe they are learning a lesson, and OTAN come too late.
ukraine has the same superiority over separatist as France over germany in 1940, an illusionnal and deprecated superiority.
I accept that people could have different POV, perhaps i' m wrong but from what i Read...
@Much things came in and out from pristina airport.@
DeleteWhat do you mean exactly, monsieur? Very interesting…
@In terms of weapon quality, what can expect ukraine ? @
They theoretically can develop their own AA and AT systems, not to mention munition and artillery shells, they can upgrade soviet AV’s and even manufacture their own light AVs –with Western help, of course, but anyway. And do not forget about numerous weapon they took after “cursed soviet occupants”. Several dozens of Tochka launch pads with hundreds of rockets. Deadly weapon.
@In terms of quantity i don t believe in ukraine support and logistics.@
Let’s look at it from another angle. After Soviet collapse Ukraine got: 700 000 army of Kiev’s military district (most of the advanced in USSR) – with full package. We should count there that soviet army of that period had “cadred” type of completing – it means development from 700 000 in peace-time to 2 mln-3 mln in pre-war-time with all relevant reserves and equipment. Reserves and stockpiles of Western group of armies. And stockpiles of old-fashioned weapon. Another words Ukraine took after USSR stockpiles for 5mln-10 mln army. Of course they have been trading it all the time of “independence” Ukraine – but they still have too much.
I understand how Russia considers Ukraine part of her sphere of influence, not a weird concept other nations do the same thing. I also understand for 20 years Russian influence has declined, which hurts.
ReplyDeleteIt is also clear that this new government in the Ukraine are a bunch of right wing nutters whom some call Nazis, they certainly have some of the tendencies. I get all the historical background, parts of Ukraine has a rich Russian heritage, other parts a more western one.
A divided Ukraine, 2 nations might even be a fair solution.
But.. all this does not give anyone the right to just take a part of the country ( Crimea) or to irresponsibly arm an other part. if you point out that other nations do, or did the same thing, I will mostly agree, but that, again is no justification.
Besides this moral, and as such ..practically useless argument, it is plain stupid. Russia is more connected to and dependent on the global economy then anyone seems to want to admit. In fact, Russia was doing great, with power a plenty to wield over Europe in the form of gas, money and trade. Look at all the international events Putin bought.. ehm brought to Russia. Look at how the international leaders groveled at his feet.
Look at the state of Russia now.. and for what? Because of hurt pride? The need to show your strong?
The sad thing is, it might actually lead to an even worst situation, where Russia plummets so much a bigger war is the only way for Putin to move forwards.. scary..
Does this mean the west, the USA should abandon Ukraine instead of honoring the commitments made to protect it when it gave up its nukes? Morally I say: no: am them to their teeth.. Part of me also wants to have revenge for MH17 and see Putin in the dirt for it.. ( and do not tell me Russia didn't do it.. there is no better proof then a voluntary 'confession' by those responsible in the form of boasting on the interweb .)
But practically speaking, selfishly looking at the best solution for us.. I do not know. Giving in and letting Putin have his prizes, which, lets be honest does not hurt us would be the easy thing to do. Just shout a little at him and move forwards to business as usual. Except.. for one question: will Russia stop here.. or will they do the same again, and again, because they can get away with it? That would be the gamble.
Meint, I'd say grab the peace for now. Then build up over the years with the memories of the grudge. The Ukrainians might, in a decade or two, end up with an army even more powerful than Russia's, if they play their cards right.
DeleteI'm currently in Singapore working for an MNC, and frankly, these people (some of the older ones at least) really bear a grudge. Look up on the web, any time someone asks "Why is conscription necessary?", you'll see groups of people flaming him with "WWII never taught you anything? Want to lick Indonesian boots? You want to outsource your army? Your maid going to carry your bags for you?"
Right now, Ukraine is in shambles due to the coup that caused a change in government and the short time before Russia started stirring the pot. If they are given time to grow and train, it'll be a different story. For one, conscription is very effective at leveling the odds against a bigger army, another, they can fortify and work out their new tactics and strategy and new weapons. And finally, where they stop now is going to be the new de facto border, which deprives Russia/the rebels/loyalists of any further caucus belli, which means that the next one to violate the border is in the outright wrong.
It's a bit of a reset and a truce at the same time.
Meint Veldman
Delete@A divided Ukraine, 2 nations might even be a fair solution.@
Yeah! According to a vulgar Russian saying “absolutely in the hole!”. The idea of federalization was said by Chornovil – one of the main Ukrainian national authority and a fighter for freedom – right after USSR fall. His speech on Ukrainian under with the main idea – “federalization will help to Ukraine”/ Україну могла врятувати федералізація // Вячеслав Чорновіл
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5h8lubkedk
But “No!”, they first organized an unitary country and now are so surprised about “what happens”.
@ Russia plummets so much a bigger war is the only way for Putin to move forwards.@
There are two parties (at leas) needed for each war – and in each war all party are guilty – the question just in form and measure.
@have revenge for MH17 and see Putin in the dirt for it..@
So you think Putin is guilty here. Any proof, would be so kind?
@will Russia stop here@
No, if another geopolitical subjects do not prevent this.
Many nations were formed under less then ideal circumstances, using less then ideal borders and such. Fixing this might be a good thing, depending on how and why it is done.
DeleteThis conflict is not for the betterment of Ukrainians, whatever their background. Unlike Kosovars no one needed protection and this could also have played out internally, possibly leading to a change or two in how the state was set up. That opportunity now is lost, because Ukraine has lost the ability to determine itself what to do.
Yes in a war all sides have SOME blame, but not equal blame. Look at it like a fight, 2 men are shouting at each other, insulting each other. Then one decides to beat the other up. The majority of the blame belongs to the one who could not restrain themselves to leave it at words.
If Russia's economy goes to the toilet , coss of among others sanctions, to such an extend Putin has to lash out to remain credible as a leader to his people you could say: well, the west is to blame, if they had not done sanctions it would not have gotten this far. I do not believe that is a valid argument. Again compare it with 2 men, one is a bully and likely to lash out. So the other just gives in to avoid the fight?
Proof of Putin's responsibility for MH17?
Well, him personally, no..it is possible he does not have a lot of control over his subjects, it is possible members of the Russian armed forces and other agencies did this on their own. But frankly I do not believe Putin is that weak.
As far as Russians being responsible, that is clear as a bell. As a Dutch citizen I was , of course, very interested from the start. When the plane had just crashed one of the rebel commanders ( Russians with generous ties to intelligence agencies) boasted on the open internet about having just downed a plane at the exact same time and location MH17 was shot down, one they to be fair, thought was part of the Ukrainian military. Of course this was later deleted, but not before 1000s of normal people were able to see and copy it. To me that is enough evidence.
It is not enough for you: there is a whole dossier build by independent amateur internet 'detectives', with a very good proven track record, this dossier proves how it was done, by whom., it can tell us the origins and faith of the BUK launcher and so on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins
https://www.bellingcat.com/tag/mh17/
The problem for governments ( and others) who want to hide things nowadays have is that it is a lot harder. its not spy satellites, wiretaps and fuzzy photographs that you can not trust because they come from one of the parties anymore, it is information that is available to everyone if you know where to look. Information that normal people like you and me can check themselves. Wile they have a hard time hiding, they can of course try to bury it under a mountain of misinformation, like very badly faked pictures of a plane shooting down MH17. The other saving grace for secretive governments is that most people are easily confused with conspiracies and populist dribble.
Then your last comment:
"@will Russia stop here@
No, if another geopolitical subjects do not prevent this.?
You literally say Russia won't stop, unless something or an other prevents it, is that what you mean? I do not understand this comment fully.
To Owl
Delete@The Ukrainians might, in a decade or two, end up with an army even more powerful than Russia's, if they play their cards right.@
Not more mighty then Russia’s but mighty enough to make all attempts of aggression against Ukraine very costly thing. And the first thing they must begin (IMHO) – tactical nuke on the base of artillery 152-mm shell. But they need time and material sources.
Meint Veldman
Delete@unlike Kosovars no one needed protection@
If you mean Crimean’s locals – you are completely wrong. It was political party Svoboda which officially stated “ukrainization of Crimean” as their official aim. Ukrainian government flirted with radical Muslims there to opposite them to Russian majority in Crimea. Not to mention that everything what now Donbas people have, can happen in Crimea – very possible at least.
@ If Russia's economy goes to the toilet @
The part of our economy close tied with “ in-dollar-we-trust” financial system – will have a lot of problems, may be even meltdown. But dollar is a poison for us, limitation for our further development. So sooner or later we would have to refuse it – if we don’t want to be Western slaves.
@ among others sanctions@
The most painful for us – decreasing of oil price, but it doesn’t look like a Western sanction. By-the-way, we have an industrial input grows for 2014 year.
@such an extend Putin has to lash out to remain credible as a leader@
Putin excellent plays “enemies-are-around-us” game (very familiar to Russians) – and this is why he has all chances to hold the power for long.
@Look at it like a fight, 2 men are shouting at each other, insulting each other.@
I propose to add some other actors in the model for more reliable connection with geopolitical reality (as I see it). So we have one guy (US-guy)– a huge and with a lot of money, this guy does his best in public relationship (because he is reach and strong – at first) – so he has a lot of ally, friends and partners. Let’s call the community revolves around US-guy – NATO.
And near to NATO happens to be another creature – “Ugly orc”, an absolute evil, all NATO’s problems (and as well all problems in the Milky-way-Galaxy are because of the Orc) are because of him only. And the worst problem – the Orc is reach, not in terms of money – who cares about paper? The orc has a lot of material sources and it is very comfortable – to trade with another guys (let’s call them ASEAN) through the orc territory. Of course the shining good guys, named NATO, can kill the orc if they attack him together – but this ugly creature has a lot of grenades (shit happens), so a lot of good guys can die. And what is the worst of the worst – the US-guy can die or be wounded. It absolutely doesn’t suit the US-guy. Of course he has grenades too – but it is the last variant ever. So US-guy affects to other guys, nearest to the orc, for acts, which exhaust the orc, and attentively keep an eye – is it time to visit the orc and finish him, or not? Are the orc’s grenades operational or not?. The Orcs, no doubt, is the ugliest and worst creature ever – but he wants to live too. So the orc tries to neutralize ties inside NATO, try to cooperate with ASEAN-guys, and another huge outside-NATO-guys keeps his grenades operational and from time the orc physically kick some partners of US guy - to hint somewhat – “URRRA!! I’m still in good shape – so just try, and you will see how orcs can fight and die – you will never forget the show, if survive afterward!!”
@ To me that is enough evidence. @
@It is not enough for you: there is a whole dossier build by independent@
With all due respect – but until we have no technical expertise but some pics in internet it is not adult behavior – to blame any country in such evil crime, don’t you think? It is just a collection of rumors – but interesting, thanks a lot for the link. So what your investigators say about why Ukrainian gov does not publish the pilot-dispatcher communication? What about analysis of the airplane damages? What do they say about entirely closed info-case, which regular follows all airplaine crash?
@I do not understand this comment fully. @
You understand my idea well. The room for operation of a geopolitical subjects is limited with operation room of another subjects.
@If you mean Crimean’s locals – you are completely wrong. It was political party Svoboda which officially stated “ukrainization of Crimean” as their official aim. Ukrainian government flirted with radical Muslims there to opposite them to Russian majority in Crimea. Not to mention that everything what now Donbas people have, can happen in Crimea – very possible at least.
DeleteThis is bullshit info' and you know it. You base this assumption over the false or truth words of party that have absolutely NO power in Ukrainian government? They barley were able to put 7 seats in to 450 seats parliament, at this is the max they can do. You in the same way say that Russia is in grave danger because some hobo in latin America said... F*** Russia. The same level of danger...
I presume to prevent "Muslim actions" Russia start to oppress them, kidnap them and close all media not under control of Kremlin there... yeah... this will NOT create some radical ani Russia movements there for sure. Genius idea.
..info, your recommendation is that the first thing you do in a war is to go tactical nuclear? You crazy or stupid? Use nuclear weapons and you can kiss international support goodbye, making a nuclear artillery shell is a waste of resources and time.
DeleteYou're better off spending it reorganizing and stockpiling weapons for your army. If they went full conscription, that is 22 million males (assuming wiki is correct and the male/female ratio isn't badly skewed). Even if only half of them are fit for service, that is 11 million guns and weapons and ammunition and logistics and food stockpiles they need to do. Assuming a 180 round per man loadout + 1 reload, that is 3.9 billion rounds, and assuming 1kg of food per man, that is 11,000 tons of food maybe per day, or per 3 days. Water is even worse.
Conventional weapons, ammunition, logistics, strategy, tactics. Only after these are settled, then look for pie in the sky "special projects".
As for MH-17, the part where the rebels were bragging was pretty conclusive. Face it, they screwed up, and trying to deny it only reduces your credibility on a no-win case. Once you are seen to support coverups, no one will ever believe what you say again. Might want to save the media statements for situations where it can make a difference, and to save your credibility for good causes, not no-win ones.
to Shas
Delete@have absolutely NO power in Ukrainian government? @
I beg to differ, pan. The first “government”, established by Maidan rioters, content representetives of Svoboda. Oleksandr Sich (Олександр Сич) from Svoboda was a prime-minister of the “government”, and he was no only on from the Svoboda there. As a proof – an article in Ukrainian http://ua.korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/3312297-novyi-uriad-povnyi-spysok-ministriv
@The same level of danger... @
I have a lot conversation with Crimeans or people around me who have relatives in Crimea. This time, right after the Maidan riot, Crimeans felt grave danger, and vast majority of them voted for Russia afterward.
@this will NOT create some radical ani Russia movements there for sure.@
Radical Muslims movements already exists there – thanks to former Ukrainian government, to Yanukovich-no-balls as well. But we know good remedy against extremists.
@close all media not under control of Kremlin there.@
Would you be so kind any proofs of the statement, pan?
to Owl
Delete@ your recommendation is that the first thing you do in a war is to go tactical nuclear? You crazy or stupid? @
Me? I’m just a useless fat clerk – what recommendations in Nuke weapon a can issue? Bgggg
I tell about obvious changes in the Russian Army, which definitely means wide usage of nuke if it go to high level of threat.
@international support goodbye, @
USA used nuke once – so what? The World recognize the power.
@You're better off spending it reorganizing and stockpiling weapons for your army.@
I don’t think it will be a great trick for us. When I was a military I saw with my own eyes a frozen beef with a mark ”was made in 1957” – guess why?
@Face it,@
Face what? Uncertain photos? Internet speculations?
@Once you are seen to support coverups@
I support evidences. Where, blyad’, reliable evidences? Technical expertise, for example?
@no one will ever believe what you say again@
I have no care. I’m interested in my own decently proved posture about the issue.
@I beg to differ, pan. The first “government”, established by Maidan rioters, content representetives of Svoboda.
DeleteHe and two other were fast remove from there, for now there is not a single one representative of this party in government, and not a prime minister but an minister. Prime minister is a head of the government. Now Svoboda is without any power and it was removed from political life almost completely.
@Crimeans felt grave danger
Artificially create danger and fear... not real.
@Radical Muslims movements already exists there
Nobody notice them there in that time... but now thank for Russians they will appear, consolidate and flourish, nothing unite the people as common enemy... especially if the "enemy" is doing everything to be the enemy.
@Would you be so kind any proofs of the statement, pan?
ATR TV, the Tatars independent local media, raided by OMON couple of days ago in 26 of January.
Human Rights Watch inform about more and more oppression against Tatars in last year, including kidnapping and murders of Tatars. Raids on Tatars homes, illegal searching... everything is there info' no need to seek to long to see that.
@ Info: your reaction ( and for that matter most of mine) is so large, some of it I even agree with..lol.. that I will not react to all. I do not want to reduce this to us nitpicking each others words either. It is educational for me to see an, most times, opposing point of view that is worded clearly and politely.
DeleteSo instead only some points additions about why I think Russia is responsible for MH17. I think there is no reason why I should not put my thoughts about this here, or elsewhere, even though it accuses an other nation. I am just me, not some prime-minister or whatever who has to be diplomatic or wait for official investigations.
I will not repeat my earlier reasons, but ad to it. To me things make sense , or they do not. Common sense is named 'common' for a reason. Wile I am sure there are some things that are a little convoluted, generally I do not believe in weird conspiracies. I do not believe that Bush had something to do with 9-11, that Kennedy was killed by the mafia or that aliens build pyramids. Simple explanations that make sens and fit human nature are much more likely to be true.
Same thing here. You can either believe one of the many complicated conspiracies, like the one about a plane full of people who were already dead, an Ukrainian government Su25, that looks like a Su27 and can fly higher then it actually can, shot down the Boeing after the Malaysian Airlines markings mysteriously disappeared. Then there is the machine-gun somehow capable of shooting that high and the suggestion Ukraine used a BUK launcher.
Al this requires a conspiracy, some very smart and ruthless people who somehow thought shooting down an international airliner was going to further their cause and would not backfire on them when evidence was found to show they did it.
Then there is what I consider as close to the truth we can get without actually being there, based on statements by actual rebel commanders and previous incidents. Like several times before the rebels decide to shoot down an Ukrainian military plane, but without the proper equipment they sadly make a mistake and shoot down an airliner.
No need to make things up, just normal logic. Several planes shot down before, not unusual that one more was hit. In fact, just today it was claimed ( by the rebels) that 2 more planes were shot down.
It was a mistake, not cruelty, much more likely. Humans generally make mistakes and unlike on tv are mostly incapable of complicated plots. Even Ukrainians.. lol..
Let me tell you an ..somewhat amusing.. theory some idiots in The Netherlands came up with: We had a 'Celebration of Russian- Dutch friendship' a few years ago and it seems Putin got annoyed when our authorities didn't stop a demonstration for gay rights wile he visited. ( I can not see inside Putins head, so I will not claim this to be a fact) This was followed by a string of incidents between the Dutch and the Russians, diplomats on both sides treated badly, a ( Dutch flagged) Greenpeace ship, weird import restrictions on Dutch produce because Russia found an infestation that no one else found. Dutch people, not government, who called for the boycott of sporting events in Russia etc. etc. So.. these people figure Russia shot down MH17 on purpose as a further step to 'engage' us, to punish us.
If you see this sequence of events and fail to see others, like our king sharing a beer with Putin himself, or the for both sides vital cooperation on natural gas distribution, it can seem perfectly logical to assume there is a pattern. Sufficed to say.. I do not believe this dribble either.
The Russian theory I referred to about the Su25, you do not actually have to read or believe their text, just look at the pictures shown on Russian State television, found on this page, yourself!:
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2014/11/14/russian-state-television-shares-fake-images-of-mh17-being-attacked/)
How will it affect US credibility if the Budapest memorandum turns out to be worthless?
ReplyDeleteIf a country exchanged nuclear weapons for toilet paper then why would any other sane faction give up WMD:s for any treaty?
The memorandum go to trash in the moment Russia grab Crimea and rest done nothing.
DeleteTBH, I don't think Ukraine could have held Crimea in either case, Crimea's demographics are very different from the rest of Ukraine, there wasn't much integration done after it was handed over, so the population is still rather indifferent to Ukraine.
DeleteA nation isn't just tossed together, it needs to be built up. Or to put it less kindly, brainwashed into thinking it is part of the group that makes a "nation". This wasn't done in Ukraine's case, hence Ukranians who call themselves Russian.
Well, there are many nations with a diverse population. Some work, some don't. But this does not give a neighbor ( with the same ethnic background.. or not) the right to annex part of it.
DeleteLook at our neighbor Belgium, it consist of two very different peoples, French oriented and Dutch oriented. It has been called the most illogical state on the planet ( a bit exaggerated in my mind) and there are legitimate and serious politicians who want to split it, some want to even have the Flemish part join The Netherlands. Now, lets imagine there is a lot of trouble, fighting, maybe even a civil war in Belgium. The ONE nation that should not send troops is The Netherlands, the neighbor who is possibly going to profit by gaining territory and people. Even with the best of intentions that would easily become an annexation.. and I do not believe in the intentions of Russia at all.
Russia dealing with problems in the Ukraine is like the firefighters helping at a small fire by hosing gasoline on it.
If ethnicity a.i. being Russian in this case is the defining factor, I wonder about Russia itself, there is large parts of it that have 10% or less ethnic Russians living there. What do you think Moscow would do when/if these decided to split of and possibly join an other nation. What if that other nation actually supports this?
Putin would be screaming holy murder!!!! Talking about sovereignty, national rights and calling these people terrorists. Whats good for the goose DEFIANTLY is not good for the gander!