Super Typhoon Pam is rampaging through the Pacific and islands are being devastated by the rain, wind, mudslides and storm surge.
Read about it and watch the CNN story here.
We saw the response to a hurricane in the Philippines.
A SPMAGTF-CR just didn't get the job done. No need to replay that experiment. It failed. For all the good that was done we could have been just as successful sending the 101st Airborne.
Light Infantry that arrives by air is not what is needed. They will need the power of a Marine Expeditionary Unit to provide security, medical assistance and clean food/water.
While the MEU is able to perform this mission solo (the Navy/Marine Corps team has perfected this type of relief mission...call them the FIRST joint force), there is something we can add to make this mission even more successful in delivering aid.
Perhaps a hospital ship. Maybe include an MLP. Add those two ships to the MEU, understand that the ports will be devastated (as well as the airport) and what do you have?
A sea base.
An entity that is designed to deliver supplies across the beach without the need for ports, in a timely manner whether for relief missions or in support of the full spectrum of combat operations.
Experimenting with peoples lives on the line is terrible. This real life experiment though will deliver help that they will desperately need while we perfect operating from the sea base in a humanitarian assistance op.
NOTE: Everyone talks about the prep time that a hospital ship would need to get to areas of concern. Considering the size of natural disasters in the Pacific we might need to address that. Additionally an MLP would allow for ships of all nations to offload supplies onto it so that LCACs can ferry goods ashore. Those two ships combined with the abilities that organic to the MEU would be life savers. We just need to perfect it now. What would be quicker? Moving an MLP to the disaster zone or repairing smashed port facilities? The Sea Base would be perfect now.
Pacific Horizons rehearsed something like this, didn't they? Thought I heard something about it, but I can't find it on the internet.
ReplyDeleteTHE problem with Disaster Relief is Proximity of Resources. With a T-AH on each coast in ROS-5, hospital ships are at LEAST three weeks away and ergo too LATE. The MLP carries NO cargo. I has NO capacity to bring relief supplies into a DR. And IF the first MLP were to be on station in Diego Garcia, it would be seven days away from the PI.
ReplyDeleteNOW the real issue, Marines are great first responders in a couple of aspects. They provide BOG and connectors. BUT... amphib warships do NOT have Significant quantities of disaster materials. Those are flown in initially and come on sealift and merchant ships later.
THE real HA & DR resoruce are the MPS ships either from DGAR or Guam/Tinian. They have lighterage, they have cargo, there is some form of a fleet hospital or EMF onboard specific MPS, the USNS Wheeler can pump water, and they all come with some version of a flight deck (mostly lily pad for helos.
Those are the realities of operational logistics.
Light Infantry that arrives by air is not what is needed.
ReplyDeleteDisaster relief comes in different sizes and packages. Particularly in the Pacific, first responders from the AIR won't be of any benefits.
When a strong cyclone/typhoon hits any Pacific island, the airport is the first to go. Tacloban, Philippines (2014) is an example. Another example, closer to "home", is Typhoon Pongsona (2002) which destroyed Guam. Anderson AFB was literally blown off the face of the earth. It took first responders 3 days for the first DR flight to get in. In both cases, US Marines were the first responders. Launched from the sea, Marines either came from the air or from the sea.
Marines as a first responders for a disaster in the Pacific. No question about it.
Nice graphic.
ReplyDeleteBTW the MLP and the Core Capabilities Set installed on both (only 2) of them is specific to two types of vessels LMSR and JHSV, and can only discharge to LCAC/SSC. The epitome of a exquisite system.
ReplyDeleteWhich "ships of all nations" are you referring to? Because IF you mean sealift ships and merchant ships they DO NOT need the MLP to discharge via Lo/Lo assuming they are self-sustaining aka fully geared.
The problem with MLP is most other ships do NOT have sideport ramps and those ramps may not work with MLP?
And to reiterate, the supporting platform for HA/DR is MPS provided the disaster was in the Pacific or Indian Ocean (where unfortunately a lot a bad things happen~).
And NONE of the MPS cost a half Billion Bucks.
outside of Haiti name the times when MPS ships have formed the vanguard of our HA/DR response! it won't be more than a couple at BEST and will probably be less than 5 over the entire time that we've had MPS squadrons!
ReplyDeletei'm glad you like the concept but those ships sail circles or sit in port. attempts to make them useful are well intentioned but doomed to failure.
Solomon - in terms of a superior regional (South East Asian) natural disaster-relief response capability... think more like 6-8x JHSV-type hulls, pre-deployed in the area, each with 3x SH-60-class in surge. Add perhaps up to 10x C-130J being dedicated and trained for the role, to deploy to a local host airport. Be prepared and trained for air-dropping supplies on the initial sortie.
ReplyDeleteBut each JHSV could have a mini-hospital container-module or two on-board. After emergency treatment, critical patients would be flown to shore-based hospitals. That's a much more responsive, cost-effective and efficient strat.
JHSV concept (based out of Singapore and Philippines and possibly even Indonesia) could respond to hardest-hit areas within 24 hrs after passing eye of storm (within SH-60 range)! Not 1-week. You need 'distributed' operating emergency-relief points of operation, within close proximity to the broader disaster area. Deep water Amphibious ships can't do that. JHSV absolutely can. Sure, let follow-on MEU come into support-role and replenish quick-reaction JHSV force 1 week after.
Simply allocate local national commercial boats to dock with 'Sea Based' JHSV, to further off-load distributed ship-to-shore emergency relief supplies to dozens of points within each JHSV's local area of operation. Follow-on supplies (locally-sourced and internationally delivered) could then be ferried to JHSV via CH-53K!
Please tell me that 'Sea Base' would not kick ass and be a far superior option!
Moreover, said JHSV vessels pre-deployed in Philippines could potentially be jointly-leased and joint-operated by PH Navy, thus doing affordable and cost-effective double duty in post-Typhoon season!
ReplyDeleteNot going to work, Yuri. Not in the Philippines, it won't.
1. The only place to put these fleets is the north of the Philippines (near or around Subic or Clark). Take not that during typhoon season, the north of the Philippines get battered by typhoon regularly.
2. The only place in the Philippines that seldom (or hardly) gets any typhoon is the rebel-infested southern Mindanao.
Indonesia won't allow non-Muslim military to stay long there. You will make the fragile "peace" go up in smoke.
well besides the basing consideration you have to also think about the obvious. JHSV's require port facilities. remember Haiti? the Philippines? ports are going to be trashed and need to be reconstituted. same thing with airports.
ReplyDeleteyou need to be able to deliver supplies across the beach. that means LCACs if you're talking about heavy machinery and its gonna mean a MLP. additionally think about what is needed most after a disaster. security. food. clean water. medical facilities. all that comes pre-wrapped in an MEU...NOT a MPS squadron. add the MLP, Hospital Ship and maybe an LCAC Barge to the mix and you have the most powerful disaster relief fleet afloat.
i haven't been keeping close tabs on the destruction here but it seems like another lost opportunity to HELP!
What is the source of the graphics you posted and where can I find high res versions?
ReplyDeletei found them on the MCCDC website under the ACV program highlights...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.mccdc.marines.mil/Resources/AmphibiousCombatVehicle.aspx
i don't know if they have any high rez versions but maybe public affairs or the webmaster can get you some.
Thank you
ReplyDeletePH is on the MSC website under media I believe/
ReplyDeleteSol unfortunately the last info available on MSC website was for 2013. Looks like the MPS are used about six times a year for HA/DR missions, plus the regularly sked exercises.
ReplyDeleteOne of the issues is that being a theater reserve asset the MPSrons are NOT always allowed to go to DR sites by the COCOM (we can only speculate as to why).
yeah but guess who's asst SecDef. Bob Work! he's a big sea base fan so i'm sure this will get sorted out...besidees the MPS ships are getting a workout inthe future. this will change and we'll see them used for HA/DR soon enough.
ReplyDeleteWell there are going to be 10 JHSVs and some could well end up in PACOM? There was originally plans to put one with each MPSron, but those might have changed.
ReplyDeleteJHSV fall into the first responder category, yes they can bring a variety of "things" to a DR site, but not likely they can operate as a "base ship" as could the MPS.
It is simply fanciful to think that a USNS would be jointed in any way with the PI navy. Besides they are currently building there own sealift ship for just such missions
Roger port facilities are needed. So the MPS could deploy their INLS pontoons as causeway piers. And support small craft such as the LCM-8s, LARCs, MPF lighters, and SLWTs they carry. LCACs are not the only landing craft available, LCM-8 and LCU 1600 work just fine.
ReplyDeleteIt is an assumption to believe that fully amphibious craft are needed to go up the beach. I believe that only once were LCACs associated with a T-AH and that was during a joint exercise.
The Seabee gear on MPS can be discharged by Lo/Lo.
Some of the disaster materials needed for a DR are on amphibs but not enough for a larger DR mission.
MLP and T-AH are just plain too big and too slow to deploy.
(sorry I could NOT get the photos to line up with the text)
Thanks for response, leesea.
ReplyDeleteI should clarify some of my previous thoughts...
Indeed, more than a mere 10 JHSV hulls would be justified and worthy as part of a credible joint-US surface fleet. 30 or so in various configurations could arguably enable a highly cost-effective and flexible, force-multiplier concept.
And with respect to your views that in no way US and Philippine Navy could jointly operate a 'Leased' JHSV (or two, or three, or four), I'd respectfully disagree with that.
Allow me to rephrase the consideration: AFP/PH Navy could lease say, 3-4 JHSV ships to be used as multi-use government cargo transport between Islands in peace-time, as well as off-shore presence, patrol and resupply ships within RP's EEZ.
But, in time of future natural disaster, e.g., a quick-reaction joint-operation of said JHSV could ABSOLUTELY be conducted by US personnel and Philippine personnel. No doubt about it.
US forces could simply be flown in to country and augment PH crews, especially in the role of logistics and rotary aviation crew.
Such Philippine-Leased JHSV could instantly transform into a jointly-operated lite-Sea-base for quick reaction emergency relief operations! Any USN JHSV in the region could naturally be rapidly responded to the area of relief operations and further supplement said RP JHSV responding to crisis!
Sol, regarding a PH scenario and contingency:
ReplyDeleteI've been there and was humbled to have volunteered with their Red Cross in the field, first aid. FWIW, I'm also an honorary member of their CGA, as volunteer in deployments and training. Not trying to breach a fallacy in my argument, but just putting it out there for sake of discussion and perspective.
But with respect to PH ports being taken out in a future 'Super Typhoon'??
Sir, there were multiple ports in the nation of 7,000 islands to survive Super Typhoon Haiyan of Nov 2013. Manila for one, of course Subic Bay, Northern Mindanao and even Cebu and many more. Do you want your fleet of JHSV quick reaction response ships do be sitting in port though?? Of course not. Put them out to sea, fully stocked with supplies and manned, 24 hrs prior to impact!
Within 24 hrs of Typhoon eye passing, simply deploy to those regions most impacted in a distributed spread of ships. Ferry in your supplies to your beach heads utilizing contracted commercial boats/taxi, etc, along with LCU and yes, SH-60 and/or CH-46/47!
Your Medical modules aboard JHSV could treat those critically injured in the immediate area, in the immediate aftermath, but most importantly... you want those patients flown/shipped to land hospitals outside of the immediate disaster area, ASAP! Especially the elderly!!
Now... 1-2 weeks later (or 1 month later), absolutely, do welcome that Medical Ship offshore to further assist with wounded, as well as welcome those follow-on MEU supply ships bringing additional troops and equipment to assist with clearing roads and flowing in supplies along side other international partners and local authorities!
The current ten JHSVs under MSC are ALL allocated to other DOD rqmts, there are NO extras. IF the PI wants a similar HSV then simply charter one from Austal or Incat, those are available on the charter market. Just like the Aussies did to begin with the Jervis Bay.
ReplyDeleteThere is no dual country crewing of USNS ships currently, and I doubt there ever will be~
More to the point, the US Navy rarely identifies MSC ships in its operational summaries online, so one has look harder to find out what the MPS are doing. Go to MSC Annual Report for operations and exercise information. The MPS have been used for HA/DR multiple times since about 1990, perhaps you need to research that?
ReplyDeleteBob Work has written some papers awhile back and was involved while DepSecNav, but not so much anymore.
Manila for one, of course Subic Bay, Northern Mindanao and even Cebu and many more.
ReplyDeleteYuri, I was born and bred in Cebu City. And I would NOT want to (pre-) position any sea- or air-based disaster relief equipment in Cebu. The geographical location of Cebu is so narrow for ships that if one was to flee a typhoon which has changed it's orientation, you're a dead duck. Cebu pier is too small and shallow to dock an LPD/LPH. If I remembered correctly, when USNS Mercy came to Cebu City, she could not docked but had to ride her anchor 40 kms SE of Cebu City (over at Talisay).
Mactan Air Base (built by the US Air Force during Magsaysay's era) is only a single runway with limited capability/capacity to support a large fleet of aircraft.
well besides the basing consideration you have to also think about the obvious. JHSV's require port facilities. remember Haiti? the Philippines? ports are going to be trashed and need to be reconstituted. same thing with airports.
That's correct, Sol. First you'll need a large airport close to a deep harbour. All disaster relief will come in to the airport and cargoes get off-loaded. The cargoes then get trucked to the harbour where the "first responders" transport ships await. What I'm saying is the Philippines has ruled themselves out. Subic and Clark are the best examples of a large airport (Clark) and a deep-water harbour (Subic). But how many times does Clark and Subic get visited by typhoon? All it took was one stupid vulcano (Pinatubo) and both Clark and Subic were out of commission for weeks.
Thanks for personal insights and response, MK -
ReplyDeleteWhat I was arguing in point was that there are a number of geographically dispersed 'ports' around the Philippines which could be mobilized and employed for a future super Typhoon-disaster relief hub. That is, most likely at least some suitable ports would survive a future Super Typhoon disaster, including the possibility of Northern Mindanao and Cebu area.
Note too, I wasn't suggesting an LHD docking in Cebu port. Rather JHSV-type vessles which could be Leased by AFP or jointly operated by Philippine government agencies, etc and in times of disaster, could even potentially be jointly-operated with USN/USMC aviation crews.
But the argument was that JHSV based in Philippines (I was proposing a force-multiplying investment in that type quick-reaction, littoral relief asset (by both US and RP), could be rapidly deployed to Cebu port area as a hub for resupplying said JHSV with relief stores and equipment, personnel, etc. Cebu port (exploiting Cebu international airport) is indeed large enough to support a JHSV and the facility is surely only going to further expand it's capacity as a shipping port too. Alternatively, your idea might work also, with smaller commercial ships/taxi boats sub-contracted in ferrying supplies to an anchored JHSV (or multiple JHSV-type) a few km's outside.
But basically, the overall argument was that a lite-sea-basing capability via regionally-operated, multiple littoral JHSV-type vessels (distributed to disperse relief zones) would be a superior 'First responder' asset - along with C-130J - to a Philippines-disaster scenario, than the LHD, hospital ship and other very large sea-based concept being being retrofitted for emergency relief 1,500km away or more (e.g. a hospital ship from Hawaii?) and then steaming to the area staying well offshore. Absolutely, 1 or 2 weeks later, etc, those arriving LHD/Sea-based platforms/Hospital ship et al would of course bring in critical follow-on phase II relief capability.
Rather JHSV-type vessles which could be Leased by AFP or jointly operated by Philippine government agencies, etc and in times of disaster, could even potentially be jointly-operated with USN/USMC aviation crews.
ReplyDeleteI'm going to sound like a d1ckhead here, Yuri. You don't "give" anything to the AFP. Never. AFP don't have the funds to maintain something this complicated. Period.
Now, let's take personal opinion about PH aside. My personal view is Hawaii is the best place to position DR/HA assets and personnel. Why? Hawaii seldom, if not rarely, gets visited by a cyclone/typhoon. The airport(s) are huge. Pearl Harbour. Good roads, rails and other means of transport.
Positioning DR/HA in a geographical area which gets visited by typhoon very regularly is not a good idea.
By the way, I forgot to mention that I was there when a super-typhoon visited Cebu City. The roads were totally un-usable because there were debris all over the place. No electricity for 2 months because 98% of the electrical cables imploded (literally). Cebu City had to ask help from the US Navy SeaBees (because the PH government could only afford to provide PHP1 million for DR use which was promptly returned). Because Mactan Airport/AFB is located in Mactan Island, a cargo ship broke mooring and damaged the Cebu-Mactan bridge thereby rendering Mactan Airport/AFB useless. Heck, even the old Lahug airstrip was totally wrecked. A number of Philippine Air Force Huey were totally destroyed.
If you go to the pier, you'll see 97% ships lying on it's side or managed to "hop" onto the pier. Like I said, the only way for DR/HA to arrive was by USN ships.
Thanks again for reply, but respectfully, I feel you missed my point.
ReplyDeleteShould USG 'give' JHSV to AFP? No.. I was suggesting Lease, albeit possibly with favorable terms (as part of the greater strategic package). Lease would also come with a built-in maintenance deal. That said, a JHSV vessel (basically a high speed ferry) should not be too extreme a level of technology in which RP could not somehow be able to maintain.
Not sure what you were getting at on that point?
Outsourcing could of course further be part of any regular support as is normal for other high-tech deals and operations all around the world.
But it's why I also proposed a joint-operational capacity with a USN aviation component in times of DR/HA. Certainly, some critical aspects of a massive, coordinated, international DR to include large-scale aviation response, would likely require US crews as well.
Also, was I suggesting that if Cebu port was in fact largely destroyed by a Super Typhoon, that JHSV vessels would head there to load up supplies from that location nonetheless? No.
Only if Cebu was for the most part saved from major destruction, such as it was widely spared in Super Typhoon Hiaiyan (with some nominal clearing and damage). Cebu International could be used within 24 hrs for C-130J quick response too, being an underestimated asset for airdropping initial (locally sourced) emergency supplies to desolate island zones prior to follow-on assistance arriving.
So just to simplify... in a future Super Typhoon scenario in PH... until such time when follow-on heavy Disaster response resources/LHD/sea-basing and hospital ship, et al, could finally arrive to the broader area (1-3 weeks later), that JHSV-type vessels based in the immediate region (e.g., some RP-Leased in the proposed concept and some US-operated) could enable the most rapid and logical quick-response lite-sea-base platform by which to deploy vital, dispersed relief assets (as well as act as a mini-hospital ship and triage center) in the first couple days.
Should USG 'give' JHSV to AFP? No.. I was suggesting Lease, albeit possibly with favorable terms (as part of the greater strategic package). Lease could also come with a built-in maintenance deal. That said, a JHSV vessel (basically a high speed ferry) should not be too extreme a level of technology in which RP could not somehow be able to maintain.
ReplyDeleteNot sure what you were getting at on that point?
Same thing, Yuri. The PH government does not have the technology, know-how and funding to LEASE something as complicated as JHSV. Have a look at Cebu City right now. There are a number of high-speed (catamaran) ferries plying nearby cities from Cebu. None of them is (co-)owned by the government. All are privately-held companies. Still think I didn't "get it"? Ask this question now: How many ships have USN given the PH government since, say, 1980 and how many are still serviceable? Two. One Peacock class patrol boat and one US Army LCM. That's it. Something as simple as Peacock class PB and the PH government still has trouble maintaining it.
Also, was I suggesting that if Cebu port was in fact largely destroyed by a Super Typhoon, that JHSV vessels would head there to load up supplies from that location nonetheless? No.
The Super Typhoon wrecked everything within a 20 kms radius of Cebu City. USN SeaBees came through beaches. Just like they did 60 years ago. The pier was un-usable and un-navigatable. How can you "dock" a JHSV when there are shipping hazards by the pier-side.